So, what's up with the Expression suite?

In WPF the XAML was about users creating their own differentiated and customized XAML, but in Windows 8, they have done a lot of the hard work for you, adding a boatload of animations, effects, and styles that you can use. This - effectively - removes the need for designers in 80% of application developers use cases, and since blend is written in WPF, that now is also no longer supported.

????? Are you saying that Blend is no longer supported because Blend is written in WPF? Wouldn't that imply Visual Studio is also not supported, since it's written in WPF too? Not to mention WebMatrix, Powershell ISE, others?

@contextfree`:WPF is still supported. It may not be the current poster child, but it hasn't gone away either.

34 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

*snip*

????? Are you saying that Blend is no longer supported because Blend is written in WPF? Wouldn't that imply Visual Studio is also not supported, since it's written in WPF too? Not to mention WebMatrix, Powershell ISE, others?

It is just the shell in Visual Studio so not really a big deal. I don't foresee significant resources being put into Blend, as none have been put into WPF in the RTM version of Visual Studio 2012. Since Microsoft have the source code, then developing Powershell or Webmatrix is not an issue for them, if developers on those teams need something then they can build it, unlike outsiders.

The long and the short of it is the desktop is now deprecated, and so too will be the tools that target it like Blend.

I may be proved wrong, once the developer division realise just how much Windows 8 has obliterated pretty much what they have been working towards for the last 5 - 7 years, but as things stand only, the courageous will invest in Microsoft desktop technologies, and I am saying that as someone that had been developing on the desktop exclusively, this is also a sentiment shared by my peers.

11 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

@contextfree`:WPF is still supported. It may not be the current poster child, but it hasn't gone away either.

as is Winforms and Visual Basic 6

@vesuvius: Again, Blend doesn't only target the Windows desktop (and Silverlight), it targets Windows 8 Metro style apps and Windows Phone apps as well.

10 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

@vesuvius: Again, Blend doesn't only target the Windows desktop (and Silverlight), it targets Windows 8 Metro style apps and Windows Phone apps as well.

Again, I think it is becoming quite apparent to the Developer Division that Windows 8 has removed years worth of application development in a number of their products, and in Windows 8, we are in effect where we were with WPF in .NET 3.0 requiring another two releases before it is usable

OK, although I'm not sure what that has to do with the original topic here.

9 hours ago, vesuvius wrote

*snip*

I think you may have Expression Web launched as a separate product with a focus on HTML5, any of their desktop products like Expression Suite are now legacy, as tablets and phones are what it is all about.

I use Expression Design for most of my vector design purposes, rather than Illustrator. I would hope they don't dump it as "legacy". I also use Design to export XAML vectors for resource libraries.

Yeah, exporting XAML is the main function of Expression Design for me as a developer ...

3 minutes ago, contextfree` wrote

Yeah, exporting XAML is the main function of Expression Design for me as a developer ...

Microsoft could always create a plugin for Illustrator, but I like Expression Design too

FWIW I know nothing about future plans, but I'm currently working for Microsoft on brand new code using WPF, Blend, Expression Design etc. (and not some internal forked version)

19 hours ago, vesuvius wrote

*snip*

as is Winforms and Visual Basic 6

I think I see the thorn in the lion's paw... (ouch). 

I would not be happy if XAML or WPF went bye bye, so I'll choose the string-universe version where it is staying.

WPF is definitely still supported. .NET 4.5 adds some nice new features to it. WinForms is no longer updated, but still supported. VB6 runtime is still supported, but not the IDE.

Now, is WPF on the way out? Definitely. WinRT will take over for WPF, but that won't be for a few years.

52 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

.NET 4.5 adds some nice new features to it.

A lot of these new features are actually bug fixes in the Framework, and the nice to have features that got canned due to time constraints. Do you really still want to be using a Ribbon control, with Office 2013 introducing a new UI, you are probably better waiting for a third party or open source version to get you the latest Office look. Visual Studio 2012 is shipping with a Ribbon control that is outdated.

(Image courtesy of techradar.com)

@spivonious: I think we'll see WinRT slowly replace Win32 and .NET. I've finally gotten a chance to do some WinRT development that doesn't involve playing around with samples. A C# application sure looks a lot like .NET and WPF/Silverlight to me. It's a bit different, but it hasn't been painful. The future looks pretty good from here, and it certainly hasn't given me a reason to whine about technology "X" being dead.

2 hours ago, kettch wrote

@spivonious: I think we'll see WinRT slowly replace Win32 and .NET. I've finally gotten a chance to do some WinRT development that doesn't involve playing around with samples. A C# application sure looks a lot like .NET and WPF/Silverlight to me. It's a bit different, but it hasn't been painful. The future looks pretty good from here, and it certainly hasn't given me a reason to whine about technology "X" being dead.

There are advantages too because of WinRT DirectX in C++. Microsoft continues to insist that they think the Desktop is here to stay though -- and not just as legacy -- so I'm wondering if eventually they'll create a framework for desktop WinRT apps.

2 hours ago, vesuvius wrote

*snip*

A lot of these new features are actually bug fixes in the Framework, and the nice to have features that got canned due to time constraints. Do you really still want to be using a Ribbon control, with Office 2013 introducing a new UI, you are probably better waiting for a third party or open source version to get you the latest Office look. Visual Studio 2012 is shipping with a Ribbon control that is outdated.

It doesn't seem like it would be a hard thing to create your own Ribbon control either, since WPF is pretty flexible. I'm not sure why it was officially added.

2 minutes ago, brian.shapiro wrote

*snip*

It doesn't seem like it would be a hard thing to create your own Ribbon control either, since WPF is pretty flexible. I'm not sure why it was officially added.

Easy to make something that looks like a ribbon control perhaps. But it is it easy to get all the behaviors right?