AnandTech says:

"I still believe Microsoft has the right idea here. It just needs some more iterations."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6695/microsoft-surface-pro-review

Performance good, screen excellent, price too high (because of the keyboard cover price).

But the biggest issue is the battery life - 4-to-4.5h - which is to be expected with the current i5 I guess.

If I were in the market (which I'm not) I'd probably be waiting for a Haswell refresh, and hopefully for the keyboard cover to become an included item, for that price.

While it has a great screen the resolution is almost too high for the size. They had to fiddle with the desktop DPI to make things readable (albeit blurry) and touchable thus negating some of the benefit of the higher resolution. You can change that to a lower DPI but then things become hard to read and touch.

One review I read said something to the effect of "It's not a tablet and it's not a laptop. If you need a laptop get a laptop. If you need a tablet get a tablet." So what exactly is this new category of device that Microsoft is trying to get people to think they need? I know with the original iPad a lot of people were saying "What would I do with it? I have a laptop and a smartphone. What do I need with a tablet other than to have something on the coffee table." While the Surface Pro and similar devices are capable of much more that a coffee table media consumption device I have to wonder how Microsoft will get folks attention.

1. Laptop replacement? Screen is too small for many content creators. Not as trustworthy on the lap (falls over for some).
2. Tablet replacement? Great tablet but is overkill if you just want to consume content.
3. Home PC replacement? It could work but for many you'd want an external monitor for long hours in front of the PC. Also it could pose a problem in those households where the PC is shared and someone has lifted the tablet to take to the coffeeshop. I think the all-in-ones are a better upgrade to Windows 8 in this case (and some of those giant "tablets" would be fun for shared table-top gaming experiences).

Like I've said before I've been using my Build 2012 tablet as a laptop replacement for quite awhile and it works but its full of compromises. That's why we're looking at the Lenovo Yoga 13 -- laptop first, everything else is icing on the cake.

44 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

One review I read said something to the effect of "It's not a tablet and it's not a laptop. If you need a laptop get a laptop. If you need a tablet get a tablet." So what exactly is this new category of device that Microsoft is trying to get people to think they need? 

Isn't that the whole point? The whole market for Surface is people who want the convenience and small form factor of a tablet but who find an iPad not powerful enough to do all of the work they need to do (e.g. not having fully featured versions of Office).

42 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

The whole market for Surface is people who want the convenience and small form factor of a tablet but who find an iPad not powerful enough to do all of the work they need to do (e.g. not having fully featured versions of Office).

I think the reviews sum up nicely the experience I have had with the Surface. On its own, not a good tablet replacement. On its own, not a good laptop replacement.

As a laptop the Surface is interesting, but not very usable. Unless you have it on a desk or table, the kickstand is not convenient for placing this thing on... well... your lap.

As a tablet it's heavy and not very comfortable to hold for longer periods of time. And its 16:9 ratio makes it very awkward to hold in portrait mode. It gets top heavy really quick because of its extra length.

It's a nice attempt by Microsoft, but I have a hard time believing that's it's enough. It really feels like another Zune project to me.

1 hour ago, Visible = False wrote

*snip*

As a tablet it's heavy and not very comfortable to hold for longer periods of time. And its 16:9 ratio makes it very awkward to hold in portrait mode. It gets top heavy really quick because of its extra length.

*snip*

Then you must be confusing portrait and landscape. Most of the stress from holding a tablet is from the downward force applied to your fingers. If you hold a tablet as any normal person does, one edge of the tablet is anchored between your thumb and index finger and the rest of your fingers support the tablet with an upward torque. The amount of torque can be calculated based on the device's moment of inertia, which is directly proportional to mass and exponentially proportional to distance. As a 16:9 tablet is narrower than, say, a 4:3 iPad in portrait mode, the torque against your fingers is actually less with a 16:9 tablet. If you are experiencing a certain "top-heaviness", it just means you don't have it centered in your hand. This is something you can workaround by positioning it in your hand better or by fanning out your fingers more, but you can't work around the physics of the additional torque due to the higher moment of inertia of a 4:3 device.

26 minutes ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Then you must be confusing portrait and landscape. Most of the stress from holding a tablet is from the downward force applied to your fingers. If you hold a tablet as any normal person does, one edge of the tablet is anchored between your thumb and index finger and the rest of your fingers support the tablet with an upward torque. The amount of torque can be calculated based on the device's moment of inertia, which is directly proportional to mass and exponentially proportional to distance. As a 16:9 tablet is narrower than, say, a 4:3 iPad in portrait mode, the torque against your fingers is actually less with a 16:9 tablet. If you are experiencing a certain "top-heaviness", it just means you don't have it centered in your hand. This is something you can workaround by positioning it in your hand better or by fanning out your fingers more, but you can't work around the physics of the additional torque due to the higher moment of inertia of a 4:3 device.

Maybe Microsoft should include that in the tutorial they show for the mouse magic corners at first sign-in.

2 minutes ago, elmer wrote

LOL... You're holding it wrong.

Exactly.

11 minutes ago, cbae wrote

The same goes for things that twist in your hand.

Or in the wind for that matter.

22 minutes ago, rjdohnert wrote

I mean I bought a Windows Surface RT, and I hated it.

...

My mother BTW has no problems with Windows 8 but she just uses e-mail and Internet Explorer.

Anyone who has a private file server is a pretty big outlier on the distribution of how an average person uses a computer.

Most people who use computers are about as technical as your mum. All Microsoft needs to do to make lots of money is to make people like your mum happy. 

48 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

No offense, but anyone who has a private file server is a pretty big outlier on the distribution of how an average person uses a computer.

Are you saying slow file copying is not a problem or are you just ignoring what he said in order to make a different point? Every computer is a server (you know file sharing via homegroup and the like). My kids and I share files all of the time across the LAN; music, photos, etc. Was Windows RT (or maybe just Surface RT) not designed to efficiently copy files? I'm just asking because I've never owned a Windows RT device.

1 minute ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

Are you saying slow file copying is not a problem.

Yes.

I decided not to comment on it directly because it is part of a long list of supposed reasons why Surface supposedly sucks, many of which are spurious at best, I was just going to assume it was an exaggeration, and not a request for help diagnosing why Windows8 has a 90x slowdown in network file copy speeds compared to Linux, particularly since I know from experience that copying large files is an inherently disk and network bound task and that the code for copying network files in Windows RT is the ostensibly the same as copying network files in Windows 7, which the op himself says is fast.

Could we not see something like this for the Surface Pro?

http://winsource.com/2013/02/06/microsoft-surface-creator-panos-panay-hints-at-keyboard-cover-with-extended-battery/

12 hours ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Yes.

I decided not to comment on it directly because it is part of a long list of supposed reasons why Surface supposedly sucks, many of which are spurious at best, I was just going to assume it was an exaggeration, and not a request for help diagnosing why Windows8 has a 90x slowdown in network file copy speeds compared to Linux, particularly since I know from experience that copying large files is an inherently disk and network bound task and that the code for copying network files in Windows RT is the ostensibly the same as copying network files in Windows 7, which the op himself says is fast.

Maybe it's specific to Windows RT or Surface RT?

Regardless, rjdohnert gave props to W8 and Metro; why would you think he was being disingenuous about the file copy? He's been a C9 member since 2004 and I haven't seen him flooding the forum with negativity about Microsoft. Why are you always so dismissive of any issue or complaint about Microsoft's technology?

7 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

Regardless, rjdohnert gave props to W8 and Metro; why would you think he was being disingenuous about the file copy? He's been a C9 member since 2004 and I haven't seen him flooding the forum with negativity about Microsoft. Why are you always so dismissive of any issue or complaint about Microsoft's technology?

If it was phrased like a genuine concern, I would have treated it as such. Long lists of "things I don't like about X" isn't a request for help.

Also I hadn't appreciated that rj was an old and quiet niner. He looked like he had just popped in to join in from the Interwebs to have a swing of the bat at the Microsoft piñata.

10 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

Maybe it's specific to Windows RT or Surface RT?

Regardless, rjdohnert gave props to W8 and Metro; why would you think he was being disingenuous about the file copy? He's been a C9 member since 2004 and I haven't seen him flooding the forum with negativity about Microsoft. Why are you always so dismissive of any issue or complaint about Microsoft's technology?

Nevertheless, claiming that a network issue is prevalent to Windows 8 is specious at best. His complaint about the network issue was amid a list of things he hated about Windows 8--not Windows RT or the Surface specifically.

1 hour ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Also I hadn't appreciated that rj was an old and quiet niner. He looked like he had just popped in to join in from the Interwebs to have a swing of the bat at the Microsoft piñata.

Maybe you should give people voicing issues about Microsoft products a little bit of the benefit of the doubt you preach that we should give Microsoft. It seems like you have this huge chip on your shoulder and are always looking to defend Microsoft no matter what the context is or who you offend in the process.

6 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

Maybe you should give people voicing issues about Microsoft products a little bit of the benefit of the doubt you preach that we should give Microsoft. It seems like you have this huge chip on your shoulder and are always looking to defend Microsoft no matter what the context is or who you offend in the process.

Some of us remember his amusing "coding when drunk" posts, though if you look through his posts he is an out and out Linux fanboi, and never far from rubbishing windows. I think he has PCOS a linux distro that was rubbished by corona_coder.

I like the guy, and wish he would post more but he is a Linux disciple.

58 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

Maybe you should give people voicing issues about Microsoft products a little bit of the benefit of the doubt you preach that we should give Microsoft. It seems like you have this huge chip on your shoulder and are always looking to defend Microsoft no matter what the context is or who you offend in the process.

I'm happy to help people with real problems with Windows.

Lists of "reasons why X sucks" is not constructive, and ignoring it isn't "defending" Microsoft. If rj has a real problem with file copies in Windows RT he can post it in a constructive way with details of what he was trying to do and allowing us to contribute towards a solution.

His paragraph was not a request for help. It was a rant against Windows, and on the basis of not encouraging negativity, I was going to just ignore it, although you seem to have turned it into yet another one of your tiring personal attacks against me.

1 hour ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

I'm happy to help people with real problems with Windows.

Lists of "reasons why X sucks" is not constructive, and ignoring it isn't "defending" Microsoft. If rj has a real problem with file copies in Windows RT he can post it in a constructive way with details of what he was trying to do and allowing us to contribute towards a solution.

His paragraph was not a request for help. It was a rant against Windows, and on the basis of not encouraging negativity, I was going to just ignore it, although you seem to have turned it into yet another one of your tiring personal attacks against me.

But the fact is you didn't ignore it and instead used it as yet another opportunity to try diminish the importance of the issues people bring up here. Sometimes issues come out of frustration but that doesn't warrant the dismissal of the issue nor the start of some twisted war of words that gets us no where. Sure people have to mind their tone but its gets is no where throwing stones.

You've stated previously that you get tired of people bringing up complaints that have already been heard. We'll I haven't heard of a file copy performance issue with W8. From my perspective it seems that what triggers your dismissive tone (and that's being generous) is more than just repetition. I really encourage you to have a more open mind on issues that are brought up here rather than the snap judgement you seem to have these days.

20 hours ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

Then you must be confusing portrait and landscape. Most of the stress from holding a tablet is from the downward force applied to your fingers. If you hold a tablet as any normal person does, one edge of the tablet is anchored between your thumb and index finger and the rest of your fingers support the tablet with an upward torque.

Note sure how I would be confusing portrait and landscape. Regardless, if you hold the Surface in portrait orientation it becomes very heavy to hold. I hold it as you mentioned, but most tablets are gripped in the lower corners. You are saying that I should grip it more in the middle. I would assume you don't have a Surface yourself because toward the middle is where the capacitive Start button is. Get anywhere near it and you'll be flipping back into the Start screen. Thus you are forced to keep your palms in the lower corners. So yes, I am holding it right and yes, it's still heavy.

Surface is mostly a two-handed device, especially if you hold it landscape. This is one of the reasons I rarely reach for the Surface as tablet of choice.

You've stated previously that you get tired of people bringing up complaints that have already been heard. We'll I haven't heard of a file copy performance issue with W8. From my perspective it seems that what triggers your dismissive tone (and that's being generous) is more than just repetition. I really encourage you to have a more open mind on issues that are brought up here rather than the snap judgement you seem to have these days.

I didn't "dismiss" his complaints about copying files over the network. I was ignoring them. If rj has a real problem with Windows RT copying files over a network, he should start by not telling the people that worked on that product that it has "been dismissed as junk".

I have no interest in helping people who are just going to be rude and who start off their concern with what looks like a rant about how the people they expect to help them suck - whether their concerns are legitimate or not.

1 hour ago, Visible = False wrote

*snip*

Note sure how I would be confusing portrait and landscape. Regardless, if you hold the Surface in portrait orientation it becomes very heavy to hold. I hold it as you mentioned, but most tablets are gripped in the lower corners. You are saying that I should grip it more in the middle. I would assume you don't have a Surface yourself because toward the middle is where the capacitive Start button is. Get anywhere near it and you'll be flipping back into the Start screen.

Then flip the Windows button around to the other side.

Thus you are forced to keep your palms in the lower corners.

No, you're not. See above.

So yes, I am holding it right and yes, it's still heavy.

If you're holding it in the corner, the aspect ratio isn't going to make much of a difference. It's going to be heavy no matter what. So you are holding it wrong.

Surface is mostly a two-handed device, especially if you hold it landscape. This is one of the reasons I rarely reach for the Surface as tablet of choice.

In my use cases, my hands aren't needed to support the majority of the weight, whether it's with one hand or with two hands. I either have it on a table or resting on my belly if I'm lounging on the sofa.

Then flip the Windows button around to the other side.

How do you flip a capacitive hardware button anywhere? If I rotate the Surface, then my other and will be touching the button.

If you're holding it in the corner, the aspect ratio isn't going to make much of a difference. It's going to be heavy no matter what. So you are holding it wrong.

That's my whole point. A 16:9 device is awkward to hold, especially if the device is heavy like the Surface is. Perhaps MS will be able to do something in software to compensate for that sensitivity.

In my use cases, my hands aren't needed to support the majority of the weight, whether it's with one hand or with two hands. I either have it on a table or resting on my belly if I'm lounging on the sofa.

That's a pretty narrow use case. As a mobile device, I very rarely reach for the Surface because it's not nearly as convenient as other tablet options. And a few times I have reached for it, I have regretted later because the batter had run dead. If you leave it in standby for more than a few days without it being on the charger, it'll be dead. Never have that problem with the iPad, but on more than one occasion I've arrived with my Surface only to find it completely drained and unusable.

2 hours ago, Visible = False wrote

*snip*

How do you flip a capacitive hardware button anywhere? If I rotate the Surface, then my other and will be touching the button.

You were complaining about it being too heavy when holding it with one hand. Make up your mind. If you're going to hold it with two, hold it with one hand in the center and one hand in the corner.

It's not rocket science.

*snip*

That's my whole point. A 16:9 device is awkward to hold, especially if the device is heavy like the Surface is. Perhaps MS will be able to do something in software to compensate for that sensitivity.

My point is that if you hold it in the corner, it's going to be too heavy even if it's a square. Your complaint about the aspect ratio is irrelevant at that point. You should be complaining that the Windows button doesn't allow you to hold it wrong.

*snip*

That's a pretty narrow use case. As a mobile device, I very rarely reach for the Surface because it's not nearly as convenient as other tablet options. And a few times I have reached for it, I have regretted later because the batter had run dead. If you leave it in standby for more than a few days without it being on the charger, it'll be dead. Never have that problem with the iPad, but on more than one occasion I've arrived with my Surface only to find it completely drained and unusable.

Reach for it and do what with it? Walk around the house with it? 90% of the use cases for any computing device is while being seated, especially with any tablet that you can't palm. At least with a 16:9 device someone with larger hands could palm it in portrait mode. It'd be far more difficult to do with a 4:3 device. That's why Apple made the iPad Mini, because the 9.7" is definitely not intended for one hand use.

4 days ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Anyone who has a private file server is a pretty big outlier on the distribution of how an average person uses a computer.

 

Too bad , 'cus it makes a lot of sense to have a personal file server if the future is tablets or tablet like PCs with relatively low internal hdd space.

Currently I use a external hdd, if I ever bought a Surface or Surface Pro, with the even more limited disk space, I'd probably upgrade that to a  file server.