Are they assuming people will buy these every year like iPads and start fresh? Having all you data in the cloud would make a wipe and reload less painful? (and let's forget about the need for a local cache for our cloud-based files)

This really feels like Microsoft is finally trying to push the world the Network Computer.

Read it and weep...

-Josh

edit: nevermind, it should.

46 minutes ago, Kental2 wrote

Assuming you were planning on getting a Surface Pro to do real work on (typically requiring a desk, keyboard, etc.) can't you connect an external hard drive to it?  External storage space is extremely cheap.  If you're making the argument that it should come with everything it needs to "just work" out of the box and be ready to go, I can respect that, but I don't see how you could call that a laptop/desktop replacement.  When I personally think of laptop/desktop replacement I think of at least something resembling a docking station: external monitor, keyboard, mouse, et al.  Part of that would have to include an external hard drive for me.

I do agree that a rich docking station experience is extremely valuable and one Microsoft should pursue to help show how well Surface can fit into an office environment. That said I don't need an external hard drive for my laptop today (dock or no dock). Having to lug around an external drive for travel really defeats the portability factor.

IMO, Microsoft had an opportunity to do better than the competition here and once again they chose the "also-ran" strategy. They really should have stayed away from the 64GB version and just issued a 128 & 256GB versions. If they want to play smoke & mirrors why not market it as "64GB SDD with a 64GB FREE UPGRADE". I think people would forgive the fact that the 128GB version only has 83GB available space if they think they are getting an extra 64GB free in the first place.

41 minutes ago, JoshRoss wrote

Is 23GB enough to install Visual Studio 2012?

-Josh

edit: nevermind, it should.

And Office (+Visio), and a giant OST, and database tools, and LOB apps and their local databases, and all of those wonderfully useful Windows 8 Store Apps.

Buying a Surface Pro to be your main development machine is nearly as silly as buying an Android Phone or an iPad to be your main development machine.

So that leads back to the questions of "What is Windows 8"? "What is Surface?" I thought Microsoft's big stick in this game was that Windows 8 (and as an example Surface Pro) could provide both your tablet experience and your desktop experience. I'd even be willing to limit the latter to "your laptop experience". In the end it's none of the above. 

Microsoft hasn't screwed anything up here. There's no difference between the Surface Pro and any other PC, be it laptop, ultrabook, tablet, desktop or server. There's nothing new here. 128GB is small, but usable, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that nothing has changed with the "revelation" here. I'm going to replace my desktop with a device like this. Doesn't matter if it's the Surface or one of the competing devices, they will all have the same storage characteristics. And these numbers have been basically the same for years. Windows 7 had the exact same footprint.

And before you claim Windows is bloated and other's are doing better, the MacBook Air has roughly the same characteristics. The 128GB MBA has 93GB free when you purchase it. That's 9GB difference, which is almost entirely accounted for by the recovery partition, where Apple provides an over the air recovery option. We can argue about that 9GB and whether or not it would be better to not have a recovery partition (there's pros and cons, and I won't argue which is the "right" choice), but the reality is that 9GB is roughly 7% of the space and not very relevant, especially when you realize you have the option to reclaim every bit of that space.

27 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

@evildictaitor: Or just as silly as a business user with Office, a few LOBs apps -- some with local data storage, and a whopping OST thinking they can use Surface instead of a laptop. Some sales guys I know will clog even that 128GB model up in no time. IMO, the 64GB doesn't have a prayer.

So that leads back to the questions of "What is Windows 8"? "What is Surface?" I thought Microsoft's big stick in this game was that Windows 8 (and as an example Surface Pro) could provide both your tablet experience and your desktop experience. I'd even be willing to limit the latter to "your laptop experience". In the end it's none of the above. 

If your job role doesn't require you to spend large amounts of time entering text, and doesn't require vast quantities of information to be simultaneously available on screen, Surface is a perfectly valid option for a business user. If you're spending your time writing powerpoints, doing finance, entering data into a metro app, Surface Pro might be great.

The problem is that Visual Studio is a perfect example of an application that will pretty much always suck on a small screen. It's text heavy (so tablets are a bad input mechanism), it's information heavy (you have a solution explorer and a toolbar and an error dialog and lots of text) and it's going to be window-heavy as well since when you press F5 it's going to open other windows like browsers or Windows Forms.

Or to put it another way, given the fact that most development machines are big, have multiple monitors, fast CPUs and lots of hard disks, it's a bit astonishing that anyone ever thought that a device with a tiny screen, no keyboard by default, a design-focus on power management and a tiny disk to improve portability would ever be a good fit for that demographic of use.

That's not to say that the Surface isn't good for business customers. It's just to say if your business is writing code, it's bad fit for being your main development machine.

2 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

If your job role doesn't require you to spend large amounts of time entering text, and doesn't require vast quantities of information to be simultaneously available on screen, Surface is a perfectly valid option for a business user. If you're spending your time writing powerpoints, doing finance, entering data into a metro app, Surface Pro might be great.

The problem is that Visual Studio is a perfect example of an application that will pretty much always suck on a small screen. It's text heavy (so tablets are a bad input mechanism), it's information heavy (you have a solution explorer and a toolbar and an error dialog and lots of text) and it's going to be window-heavy as well since when you press F5 it's going to open other windows like browsers or Windows Forms.

Or to put it another way, given the fact that most development machines are big, have multiple monitors, fast CPUs and lots of hard disks, it's a bit astonishing that anyone ever thought that a device with a tiny screen, no keyboard by default, a design-focus on power management and a tiny disk to improve portability would ever be a good fit for that demographic of use.

That's not to say that the Surface isn't good for business customers. It's just to say if your business is writing code, it's bad fit for being your main development machine.

I can't tell you the number of devs I know that get by coding on 14" laptops. So it's not quite as bad as you make out. That said, we have a lot of devs here that do really serious development work with those 14" laptops by docking them, where they get full size keyboards, mice, multiple 24" monitors, etc. I can do the same with the Surface Pro. So, why shouldn't I expect to be able to use it this way? DeathByVisualStudio is claiming the HD space would prevent that, but I call BS there as well.

21 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

*snip*

I can't tell you the number of devs I know that get by coding on 14" laptops. So it's not quite as bad as you make out. That said, we have a lot of devs here that do really serious development work with those 14" laptops by docking them, where they get full size keyboards, mice, multiple 24" monitors, etc. I can do the same with the Surface Pro. So, why shouldn't I expect to be able to use it this way? DeathByVisualStudio is claiming the HD space would prevent that, but I call BS there as well.

Well, you can dock a Surface Pro and do dev on it, but since the Surface Pro is really underpowered for a general purpose dev machine, it's kind of pointless. You're basically paying lots of money for a machine that's optimised for low power, low weight and ultra-portable, and then asking it to do CPU intensive things whilst plugged into a docking station, which seems a bit like a waste, when instead you could just get a desktop PC with much more power for the same cost because they don't need to optimise for power or portability (which you don't want, 'cos you're going to dock it anyway).

I guess the point is if your tablet is going to spend most of it's time docked, why not get a laptop or a desktop PC instead? Complaining that Microsoft's tablet debut isn't a very good general purpose desktop PC sounds like you've missed that it's a tablet and not a laptop.

It's like saying my Microwave isn't a very good coffeemaker. Well, duh. It's a microwave. If you want to make coffee, use the coffee-maker.

43 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

but since the Surface Pro is really underpowered for a general purpose dev machine, it's kind of pointless. basically paying lots of money for a machine that's optimised for low power, low weight and ultra-portable, and then asking it to do CPU intensive things whilst plugged into a docking station, which seems a bit like a waste,

It has an i5 (IvyBridge) and 4GB RAM. Why wouldn't it perform well for general development? Unless building a game engine is part of your definition of "general"...

But, your main point stands...if all you're going to do with Surface Pro is sit down at a desk to code all day, you'd might as well get a PC which would be cheaper and much more powerful. 

Though, I'm the type of person who'd want to move around and hit the coffee shops to work on stuff. For this type of scenario, a Surface Pro would be just fine (though, an Ultrabook would work as well).

Now, a Haswell Surface Pro, on the other hand ...

1 hour ago, wkempf wrote

@DeathByVisualStudio: My main development machine is using 193GB. Both Program Files directories (it's a 64bit install) total about 16GB. So, 45GB is used for the exact same thing as is used on the Surface Pro. OK, not quite. My desktop doesn't have the 8GB recovery partition... but I blow that off of Surface as well. So, 45GB - 8GB + 16GB means not including data I'll use roughly 53GB of the 128GB drive, leaving me 75GB of space for data. Obviously my current desktop is using more than that, but it's data. On can put data offline in various ways: cloud, SDXC card, USB HD, etc. There's very little in my current 193GB that I'd need/want to have on the main storage of the device.

Microsoft hasn't screwed anything up here. There's no difference between the Surface Pro and any other PC, be it laptop, ultrabook, tablet, desktop or server. There's nothing new here. 128GB is small, but usable, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that nothing has changed with the "revelation" here. I'm going to replace my desktop with a device like this. Doesn't matter if it's the Surface or one of the competing devices, they will all have the same storage characteristics. And these numbers have been basically the same for years. Windows 7 had the exact same footprint.

[tap][tap][tap] is this mike on? You totally missed my point. My beef is with the 64GB version. You could make a case for the 128GB version for a lot of people but there will be many undeserved by even that amount of storage. What did you think I meant by these statements?

2 hours ago, SomeDumbAss wrote

*snip*

They really should have stayed away from the 64GB version and just issued a 128 & 256GB versions.

2 hours ago, AnotherMoron wrote:

*snip*

The 128 GB/ 83 GB free may be big enough for some office workers but we all know as apps and Windows bloat over the years this space will hardly be enough.

2 hours ago, CheeseMoverHater wrote:

*snip*

IMO, the 64GB doesn't have a prayer

Suggesting people make the effort to squirrel away their data on USB stick, memory card, the cloud, etc is just more friction for adoption.

1 hour ago, wkempf wrote

And before you claim Windows is bloated and other's are doing better, the MacBook Air has roughly the same characteristics. The 128GB MBA has 93GB free when you purchase it. That's 9GB difference, which is almost entirely accounted for by the recovery partition, where Apple provides an over the air recovery option. We can argue about that 9GB and whether or not it would be better to not have a recovery partition (there's pros and cons, and I won't argue which is the "right" choice), but the reality is that 9GB is roughly 7% of the space and not very relevant, especially when you realize you have the option to reclaim every bit of that space.

I didn't claim that Windows is bloated. Apps grow with data & updates and Windows grows with Windows Updates -- you know all of that stuff in Windows\Installer & Windows\WinSxS. All of that clogs a drive.

That's great Apple has OTA recovery option. Why not Microsoft? They didn't even reach "also-ran" status here.

And why blow away the recovery partition? What about sales guys in the field? They'd loose the ability to recover from a bad update or some other catastrophe. I thought Microsoft put that there for a good reason? Feature, no? Or did they do it wrong?

36 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Well, you can dock a Surface Pro and do dev on it, but since the Surface Pro is really underpowered for a general purpose dev machine, it's kind of pointless. You're basically paying lots of money for a machine that's optimised for low power, low weight and ultra-portable, and then asking it to do CPU intensive things whilst plugged into a docking station, which seems a bit like a waste, when instead you could just get a desktop PC with much more power for the same cost because they don't need to optimise for power or portability (which you don't want, 'cos you're going to dock it anyway).

I guess the point is if your tablet is going to spend most of it's time docked, why not get a laptop or a desktop PC instead? Complaining that Microsoft's tablet debut isn't a very good general purpose desktop PC sounds like you've missed that it's a tablet and not a laptop.

It's like saying my Microwave isn't a very good coffeemaker. Well, duh. It's a microwave. If you want to make coffee, use the coffee-maker.

I have a desktop and am not going for a desktop replacement in my case however we have sales people who want to replace their laptops for W8 tablets because they thought Microsoft had the best of both worlds (tablet and laptop) all in the Surface Pro. The 64GB version isn't an option because of lack of available space. The 128GB may be an option for some but for others it will mean a constant grooming of the SDD in 6 months to a year. I have to wonder what the Windows Blue update will do to those machines. Historically service packs haven't been to kind to disk space.

My old laptop (which I did development on while on the road) had the same screen resolution as my W8 Build tablet. The tablet has the same amount of memory and better processor. While the screen is small I have no problem working in Visual Studio nor Eclipse. Both actually run faster on the tablet than the laptop. The tablet packs down smaller even with dock, keyboard, and mouse and is a joy to travel with. I don't sacrifice performance for power.

So in the end it sounds like you are saying the the Surface Pro is a tablet that in some niche cases can serve as more. And here I thought the Surface Pro was going to be everything that  Surface RT was not. At least that's what some people said when others complained about the limits of Surface RT and Windows RT devices in general. Oh well...

 *Edit*: Typos

1 hour ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

It's like saying my Microwave isn't a very good coffeemaker. Well, duh. It's a microwave. If you want to make coffee, use the coffee-maker.

And so now I'm a moron? And people wonder how these threads go so negative so quickly.

3 hours ago, evildictait​or wrote

Maybe this just isn't obvious enough, but The Surface Is Not A Laptop. It is a Tablet.

Buying a Surface Pro to be your main development machine is nearly as silly as buying an Android Phone or an iPad to be your main development machine.

Which to me means I have no reason to buy one. The only reason I was interested in the Surface Pro is because I thought it might be a full fletched laptop replacement that could also be a tablet when the need arose.

My laptop is my primary work machine. At work, I connect it to an external keyboard and monitor, and I don't have another computer there. I use it on the go as well, but I rarely actually code on it that way because even a 13" screen is too small for that. I also use it at conferences for e-mail etc., and on flights to watch movies.

Those last two occasions are the only situations in which I think it'd be nicer if I had a tablet. However, they don't pop up often enough for me to want to own a separate tablet. I already have a laptop, smartphone and Kindle, so why would I want yet another device to carry around with such a limited range of usage scenarios? I'd never use a tablet at home, because I have my desktop PC and since I live in Tokyo I'm never more than 4 metres away from it while inside my house. I'd never use it at work, because that's what my laptop is for and it's not a productivity device. I wouldn't use it while commuting because I read during that time and e-Ink is vastly superior to any LCD screen for that.

So I don't own a tablet, because if I did buy one it'd be nothing more than a toy that would rarely see any real use.

The Surface Pro piqued my interest because it sounded like it could take over the job my laptop did (dock at work as my primary machine, occasional on the go work) and also be a tablet for simple e-mail or video stuff when I needed that.

But it sounds like the Surface Pro will be too limited in capabilities to stand in for my laptop, which is a shame. Hopefully its successor will be better, or a third party OEM will make something better suiting my needs.

It's s shame, because this is a unique opportunity. It's something no other tablet can do. To me this is much more interesting than having a separate tablet, and furthermore it's something only Windows 8 can do. No other PC OS can also be used on tablets. No other tablet OS can also be used for real work. MS should really try to capitalize on that more.

58 minutes ago, Charles wrote

I'd say we should let the device speak for itself before claiming that it's not fit for X of Y scenario based on a few articles in the pop tech press.

Sure, why not... Surface RT was given a chance to speak for itself. Let's give Surface Pro the same chance too.

23 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

Sure, why not... Surface RT was given a chance to speak for itself. Let's give Surface Pro the same chance too.

What's that supposed to mean? Have you tried using a Surface RT?

3 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

What's that supposed to mean? Have you tried using a Surface RT?

Indeed I have. Don't you remember my report?

What does that mean? Isn't it obvious? If an appliance store sold a toaster-oven with a picture on the box of a microwave and the store clerk tells you "no, no it really can cook food fast" it's well like duh that isn't the same but you buy it anyway because to you it's the "micro-toaster". If in that same store they have a microwave that has a picture of a oven on the box and the store clerk affirms "no, no, you really can bake a delicious cake in it" it's well like duh that would make a pretty lousy cake but you by it anyway because to you it's the "micro-oven". You would think only an idiot would buy something based on a picture or the word of someone trying to sell it. Then again if it's got the right brand on the box people will justify purchasing about anything -- even people who think they are intelligent.

I can't wait to hear what Surface Pro has to say...

13 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

Indeed I have. Don't you remember my report?

That report says that you saw a Surface RT in a Best Buy and that you outsmarted some Best Buy employees because (surprise surprise) Best Buy employees don't necessarily know a whole lot about the products they are selling.

As I said before. Have you actually used a Surface RT?

Let's just take consumer pricing, wouldn't it behoove Microsoft to include a recovery USB Key.  A 16gb memory stick is about 15 dollars now.  With volume pricing it would be even less than that.

Originally OEM's included a recovery disc, wouldn't it be progressive and cost effective for Microsoft to do the same thing with modern tech.

As is, I couldn't even think about purchasing a 64gb Surface with that much storage restriction.  Especially with the known issues with integrating a microsd card as part of the storage.  (Bring on the Windows Home Server Storage Pool, thank you very much.)

Furthermore, on that same floor every single mobile provider in Japan (Softbank, AU, DoCoMo, etc.) has their own displays with various model iPads, and you can't swing a cat on that floor without hitting an iPhone 5. I looked very hard, but none of them had even a single Windows Phone on display, even though they are apparently sold here (I say apparently; I have never seen one). Meanwhile, iPhone and Android have done a great job cracking open the previously thought to be saturated Japanese mobile phone market.

4 minutes ago, RLO wrote

Originally OEM's included a recovery disc, wouldn't it be progressive and cost effective for Microsoft to do the same thing with modern tech.

They do - it's just that instead of shipping a USB key with it on, you can just do it directly from inside the OS: http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/support/surface-with-windows-RT/warranty-service-and-recovery/how-do-i-refresh-or-reset-surface

-Josh

23 minutes ago, JoshRoss wrote

I'm just going to buy it for the clicky sound it makes. Besides, I hear teenagers think it's cool. 

Cheevo unlocked!

Starting at $1900, what could you do with a Surface? You could put two processors in it, ARM + Intel, and 192 GB of flash. The ARM could be used when it could, so that you get better battery life. People are buying both right now.

This all started with the idea that you could put both devices in the same box. That is where the value is. I don't see why Microsoft thinks that it has to compete with a $1000 handicap. Make the thing $2200, and compete on utility.

-Josh

1 minute ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

That report says that you saw a Surface RT in a Best Buy and that you outsmarted some Best Buy employees because (surprise surprise) Best Buy employees don't necessarily know a whole lot about the products they are selling.

As I said before. Have you actually used a Surface RT?

Let's see... I said

I had to correct misinformation that people were given by the Microsoft reps that were there.

There were two Microsoft reps there handing out questionable information at best. One of them had a Yoga that he was very proud of. Of course it was running Windows 8 Pro and not RT. He knew he was basing a lot of what he said on Windows 8 Pro when he was speaking about Surface RT. I suppose since I don't have names nor Microsoft badge numbers this is something you'd assume I made up. I mean you really invested yourself in what I wrote and it shows  so why should you believe anything I say here? 

I spent two hours at Best Buy using all of the Windows 8 laptops, tablets, etc. trying to find something for my daughter. I spent all least 30 minutes with Surface RT alone trying to find something to like about it, trying to justify why it would work for my daughter. I suppose since I didn't walk away with one and really try and integrate it into my life that my opinion of the experience isn't worth a red cent to you. Then of course that would make me pretty stupid buying something that doesn't have the value I think it should after 30 minutes of use.

1 hour ago, JoshRoss wrote

Starting at $1900, what could you do with a Surface? You could put two processors in it, ARM + Intel, and 192 GB of flash. The ARM could be used when it could, so that you get better battery life. People are buying both right now.

Yeah... that would require a completely custom motherboard (or having two motherboards). I don't think there's any hardware right now capable of handling having two CPUs of completely different architectures in the same machine. If you want them to share memory and other peripherals, we're talking a completely new kind of north/southbridge architecture that would have to be developed just for this device. Just waiting for Intel to make more power efficient CPUs will probably faster than starting this kind of project from scratch.

Then you'd need to have two operating systems. Windows RT can't run on Intel, and Windows 8 can't run on ARM, so you'd have to dual-boot. This takes twice as much storage space, and you require a reboot every time you want to switch; not exactly user-friendly. And even if you can somehow sync which apps are installed and start screen layout etc. between the two, you'd still need to install them twice (since ARM and Intel apps can use different binaries), again wasting more disk space.

It's a nice idea, but actually doing it in a practical fashion is pretty much impossible without a complete and utter redesign of both hardware and Windows itself.

1 hour ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

There were two Microsoft reps there handing out questionable information at best. One of them had a Yoga that he was very proud of. Of course it was running Windows 8 Pro and not RT. He knew he was basing a lot of what he said on Windows 8 Pro when he was speaking about Surface RT. I suppose since I don't have names nor Microsoft badge numbers this is something you'd assume I made up. I mean you really invested yourself in what I wrote and it shows  so why should you believe anything I say here?

I'm sure you outsmarted those Best Buy employees. Give yourself a pat on the back. I'm not sure how you outsmarting a couple of minimum wage workers in a Best Buy says anything (positive or negative) about Windows RT though.

I spent two hours at Best Buy using all of the Windows 8 laptops, tablets, etc. trying to find something for my daughter. I spent all least 30 minutes with Surface RT alone trying to find something to like about it, trying to justify why it would work for my daughter. I suppose since I didn't walk away with one and really try and integrate it into my life that my opinion of the experience isn't worth a red cent to you. Then of course that would make me pretty stupid buying something that doesn't have the value I think it should after 30 minutes of use.

So you've poked a couple of apps on a Windows RT device in a store. You've never actually tried to properly use one. You've never tried writing an actual document in desktop Office, nor have you tried actually browsing the Internet like you would at home.

What I'm getting at is that all of your negativity towards Windows RT is almost entirely based on what you've read about it on websites that you frequent. You've never actually bothered to try it and give it a fair test.

It may not say much about the actual long-term usability of Windows RT, but it definitely does say something about its chances of succeeding commercially.

3 minutes ago, Sven Groot wrote

@evildictaitor: I hate to say it, but DeathByVisualStudio does kind of have a point here. If the average consumer doesn't end up loving the device within 10 minutes of trying it out in a store, they probably won't buy it. And if they read the same websites that DBVS does, they'll come in with the same expectations.

It may not say much about the actual long-term usability of Windows RT, but it definitely does say something about its chances of succeeding commercially.

Let's not pretend that DBVS is an average consumer or that he went into that store to buy a Windows RT tablet. By the sounds of it, he went into the store to mock the staff's lack of knowledge of Windows RT.

Let's be honest. DBVS and WTWF weren't ever going to buy Windows RT tablets. But then you're probably not going to sell a steak to a vegetarian or a Ford car to the CEO of Toyota. That doesn't mean that the steak isn't juicy or that the Ford car isn't better. It's that when you're trying to sell something to someone who's already chosen not to want your product, you're not going to be able to convince them otherwise, no matter what you do.

12 hours ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

And so now I'm a moron? And people wonder how these threads go so negative so quickly.

Hmmm... I'd say you're reply came much closer to calling me a moron than his post did you. So, I'm going to agree with what you just said, but suggest you think about what you said a bit.

7 hours ago, RLO wrote

Ok, just a thought here.  Maybe thinking outside of the box is what is needed.

Let's just take consumer pricing, wouldn't it behoove Microsoft to include a recovery USB Key.  A 16gb memory stick is about 15 dollars now.  With volume pricing it would be even less than that.

Originally OEM's included a recovery disc, wouldn't it be progressive and cost effective for Microsoft to do the same thing with modern tech.

As is, I couldn't even think about purchasing a 64gb Surface with that much storage restriction.  Especially with the known issues with integrating a microsd card as part of the storage.  (Bring on the Windows Home Server Storage Pool, thank you very much.) 

Modern day laptops generally still have CD drives. Despite that, the vast majority of them don't ship you recovery media on CD, they put it on the device in a separate partition. That CD is going to cost a LOT less than a USB stick. They still don't give you recovery media. There must be a reason for that, and it makes no sense to think it has to do with the cost of the media. I can think of several reasons why it might be, but I won't claim I know why. I do know that for many consumers putting the recovery media on the device is best possible choice. For most of the rest of us, it shouldn't be an issue because we're tech savvy enough to create that USB stick ourselves and wipe out the recovery partition. So, for the most part, these arguments are pointless. I guarantee there's not a single person on this thread complaining about this that would have any problems at all creating their own recovery media and removing the partition. It's just fun to knock on Microsoft, really.

1) surf for things while laying in bed, watching TV.

2) RDP into my desktop or laptop or media center PCs which are anywhere from 4 to 40 meters away from me. 

I was thinking about the Pro, but now that I've used the RT for this long, I just don't see what it will add.  The form factor is too small to do any serious work, and despite the advertizing blitzes from any and all tablet manufacturers (including Apple and Google), tablets are a stupid form factor for doing long term creative work.

Edit: and I picked up the keyboard attachment for this very reason.  Screen typing is for hipster dummies.

 It's just fun to knock on Microsoft, really.

I don't think that's true at all.. 

But what isn't fun, is making sacrifices all over xmas to save up for one, to then have it knocked back to a completely unknown date and price all the while more and more negative news coming.. I can't wait for just how shocking the battery life is going to be. Because something smells rotten in Denmark to me.. 

I for one was hoping to make this my hobby dev replacement.. it's no trouble popping a full size kb, mouse and monitor, it has all that covered.. but you get the benefit of being able to take it with you for use in other areas. But looks like I got that wrong also, seems I got it all wrong. Ha. I'll entertain myself with a RaspberryPI for the summer instead whilst I watch with anticipation how this fiasco unfolds. 

8 hours ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

I'm sure you outsmarted those Best Buy employees. Give yourself a pat on the back. I'm not sure how you outsmarting a couple of minimum wage workers in a Best Buy says anything (positive or negative) about Windows RT though.

Microsoft employees EvilD, Microsoft employees...

Note to self: Inferring that someone is a liar is acceptable forum decorum.

*snip*

So you've poked a couple of apps on a Windows RT device in a store. You've never actually tried to properly use one. You've never tried writing an actual document in desktop Office, nor have you tried actually browsing the Internet like you would at home.

What I'm getting at is that all of your negativity towards Windows RT is almost entirely based on what you've read about it on websites that you frequent. You've never actually bothered to try it and give it a fair test.

Actually I typed a full page document in Word (to test the keyboard lag) and did extensive testing in OneNote as that would be my daughter's principle application. I even pestered the clerks enough to get me a capacitive pen to test the inking.

The problem here is your stereotyping of me and until you get over it I'm wasting my time here because no matter what I do it won't be good enough for you.

2 hours ago, wkempf wrote

*snip*

Hmmm... I'd say you're reply came much closer to calling me a moron than his post did you. So, I'm going to agree with what you just said, but suggest you think about what you said a bit.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I said you totally missed my point and showed you how through self-deprecation (you know calling myself a moron). I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. 

23 minutes ago, CaRDiaK wrote

*snip*

I don't think that's true at all.. 

But what isn't fun, is making sacrifices all over xmas to save up for one, to then have it knocked back to a completely unknown date and price all the while more and more negative news coming.. I can't wait for just how shocking the battery life is going to be. Because something smells rotten in Denmark to me.. 

I for one was hoping to make this my hobby dev replacement.. it's no trouble popping a full size kb, mouse and monitor, it has all that covered.. but you get the benefit of being able to take it with you for use in other areas. But looks like I got that wrong also, seems I got it all wrong. Ha. I'll entertain myself with a RaspberryPI for the summer instead whilst I watch with anticipation how this fiasco unfolds. 

The news is being reported as negative, but the reality is something else entirely. There's nothing here that we didn't know, or couldn't have figured out, and it's only "negative" if you spin it that way.

The Surface Pro isn't a typical "tablet" like the iPad or Nexus devices. It has a tablet form factor, but has much more in common with ultrabooks/laptops than it does tablets. That was always a known fact. As such, all this hoopla about the space taken up by the OS, installed apps and the recovery partition should have been known information all the way back to the day the Surface was announced. It's only negative if you spin it that way, because, again, we've not considered it negative for the past 10 years!

I don't see how any of this information makes you conclude you got anything wrong. The Surface should work just as well for a "hobby dev replacement" as any ultrabook/laptop with the same size HD would have (the only difference is that the screen is smaller than most ultrabook/laptops, but you always knew that). Me, I'm still going to use a 128GB Windows 8 Pro tablet/hybrid as my next device, on which I plan to do development work. I know the trade offs I'm making with that decision, and I'm fine with them. Other's won't be... but nothing has changed with the recent announcements to make you switch from "I thought" to "I can't".

8 hours ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Let's not pretend that DBVS is an average consumer or that he went into that store to buy a Windows RT tablet. By the sounds of it, he went into the store to mock the staff's lack of knowledge of Windows RT.

Let's be honest. DBVS and WTWF weren't ever going to buy Windows RT tablets. But then you're probably not going to sell a steak to a vegetarian or a Ford car to the CEO of Toyota. That doesn't mean that the steak isn't juicy or that the Ford car isn't better. It's that when you're trying to sell something to someone who's already chosen not to want your product, you're not going to be able to convince them otherwise, no matter what you do.

Missed that one. Looks like I'm a liar again. And who said "the good guys" can't take this forum to the negative? 

3 hours ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

Missed that one. Looks like I'm a liar again.

I didn't say you were a liar. I said you weren't impartial.

And, no offence  but saying I took this forum to the negative by saying you're not impartial when you started this thread with "Unfortunately...[Microsoft] blew [the release of Surface]", "Windows [is] bloated", "[Surface] is painful" and "Read it and weep" is a bit rich.