The Windows 8 nadir

Related to this second point is information I've received that Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I've seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview. And those with hopes that Microsoft would allow businesses, at least, to boot directly to the desktop should prepare for disappointment. That feature not only isn't happening, it's being removed from Windows Server 12 (Windows 8's stable mate) as well.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-windows-8-businesses-143238

Laughing out loud! This Windows 8 thing becomes utterly ridiculous. Forcing Metro is bad enough, but going as far to cripple third party start menu replacements?!

I guess the people at MS are afraid that OEMs will put Stardock's start menu replacement on desktop computers on default. Well, boys, if you indeed assume that your core product will be this unpopular with the laptop/desktop customers, then you've got a problem. And raping them into your product won't work.

As I said, this will be far, far worse than Vista. Vista wasn't that bad, its problems were mostly buggy third party drivers, and under-estimated system requirements. Stuff which can be fixed by updated drivers, service packs and a RAM upgrade. Win 8 on the other hand.. that's the real deal, baby.

By the way,  was Sinofsky seen at Wallstreet lately? 

@wastingtimewithforums: After a month of Windows 8, I don't miss the start menu at all. It's even less important on the server version. I imagine we'll see a nice Server Manager metro app to replace the thing that auto-starts with Server 2008R2.

I hope it's the nadir. It can only go up from there.

In all seriousness, the more I think about it, I'm not so sure that business users, in general, wouldn't take to the Metro-style interface. As a developer, I would go insane without being able to tile or cascade multiple windows. I prefer working from a notebook, so I don't have multiple displays unless I go to my desktop. But for consumers and even business users, I regularly see them use applications full screen anyway. Of course, this is far more a drastic change than going from menus + toolbars to the ribbon. So we'll have to see.

But the cynical side of me isn't thinking that Microsoft is encouraging everybody to go all Metro because they think business users will ultimately like Metro and think it's best for them. I think Microsoft is doing so because they want to encourage third party developers to sell their products in the Windows Store. Microsoft can only get that 30% cut if it's a Metro app.

@wastingtimewithforums:

I very much doubt anyone has been "furiously ripping out legacy code". The start menu code would have been planned to have been removed from the very begining I'm sure. It was only present in builds upto not to ease the transition of various aspects of the OS with dependancies on it. It is most likely there primarily so there was a robust backup to use when developers were working though issues with the new metro start screen. But now that we're into the RC it's time to cut out anything that doesn't have any use. Microsoft were never going to keep lecacy start menu code and maintain it just for the purpose of power users who want to hack it back into life.

It's most likely the same situation where when VS2010 was developed it worked in GDI mode and WPF mode up until near the very end until the finally removed all the GDI code that didn't have any purpose.

The idea that Microsoft have been "furiously ripping out legacy code" that was never going to be usable my anybody besides being hacked back into the OS is laughable. I gather though there's nothing stopping anyone from writing an alternative classic style start menu from scratch however.

17 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

@wastingtimewithforums: After a month of Windows 8, I don't miss the start menu at all.

Yeah, tell that Microsoft. It seems they have less faith in that than you, otherwise they wouldn't cook up all these crazy antics to get the start menu out of sight. What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over, right?

6 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

*snip*

Yeah, tell that Microsoft. It seems they have less faith in that than you, otherwise they wouldn't cook up all these crazy antics to get the start menu out of sight. What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over, right?

What causes you to grieve hurts initially, but you soon forget and move on. But that doesn't mean that it hurts any less when you experience it.

20 minutes ago, battlebottle wrote

@wastingtimewithforums:

*snip*

It's most likely the same situation where when VS2010 was developed it worked in GDI mode and WPF mode up until near the very end until the finally removed all the GDI code that didn't have any purpose.

That's not a fair comparison. The start menu is a feature and has a purpose; it's tangible to the user. GDI code in VS is an implementation detail and as such is not tangible to the user.

1 minute ago, DeathByVisualStudio wrote

*snip*

That's not a fair comparison. The start menu is a feature and has a purpose; it's tangible to the user. GDI code in VS is an implementation detail and as such is not tangible to the user.

But his point was that the only reason both code bases existed was for testing purposes by developers in their respective product teams.

38 minutes ago, spivonious wrote

@wastingtimewithforums: After a month of Windows 8, I don't miss the start menu at all. It's even less important on the server version. I imagine we'll see a nice Server Manager metro app to replace the thing that auto-starts with Server 2008R2.

I hope they improve the ability to manage Server from MMC snap-ins. The less I actually have to log into my servers the better.

OK, I have a question for you "get used to it" fanbois:

Just why should anyone? I mean, if it would be an improvement, sure, but Metro Menu just isn't! It's cool for tablets, but on lapdesktop it's a complete regress.

Getting used to something just for the sake of .. getting used to it is not exactly an argument. It's completely insane actually. I am pretty sure you could still drive a car after a while if you replace the wheel by a joystick and the gear change with some sort of trackpad-like device.. but just why?! Because the three-headed blobfishes from Delta Pavonis 3 drive cars like these?

Same argument basically. Cripple the laptop/desktop because.. eh, smart phone users have these control schemes too! LOL! Yea, and? What gives?

There is a reason why a jet has a different control scheme than a boat.

This is bad enough, but actually going to cripple third party start menu replacements is nuts. I have never seen a company this adamant to piss off its own existing user base and customers in such a blatant way to catch the dragon.

The list grows longer:

DVD playback
Start menu and button
VS Express for desktop
And now crippling start menu replacements

Let's also not forget issues like the store-only way to get metro apps. The only way to mitigate this is to roll out your own in-house windows store. - this means that if you want to provide in-house Metro programs, you _need_ to buy Win servers just for that.

Replacements aren't "crippled". Hacks that exploited existing start menu code (those are NOT replacements) will no longer work, but it will still be trivial to create a replacement, and you can be sure there will be plenty of them available.

You can always install miniWE I published on download.com.

Ofc, it it miniWE, not a start menu. If there is really no alternatives, I will update it to access power controls. I mean, it should be possible for .NET right.

1 hour ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

OK, I have a question for you "get used to it" fanbois:

Just why should anyone? I mean, if it would be an improvement, sure, but Metro Menu just isn't! It's cool for tablets, but on lapdesktop it's a complete regress.

*snip*

Imagine if each key on your keyboard had a capacitive touch sensor so that your entire keyboard would be one ginormous trackpad. Imagine never having to move your hands off the keyboard to move the mouse cursor. Wouldn't that be a HUGE improvement over the keyboard+mouse paradigm even for desktop computers? If something like this ever came to pass, then Metro Menu would be an improvement over the current start menu. As long as we're stuck in the mindset that keyboard+mouse can't be improved upon, it will be self-fulfilling prophecy. As much as I absolutely abhor touchscreen keyboards and even more so today's trackpads, I think the idea of touch gestures and NUI, when applied correctly, will make the keyboard+mouse paradigm seem burdensome to use.

If somebody finds a way to turn the tops of the keys in a real, tactile keyboard into a huge mosaic of touch sensors to form a single trackpad, I'll be the first to sh1tcan all the computer mice that I've "collected" over the years.

And I can Imagine pluging-in your brain into a computer. Will Metro tidy up this brainsucking experience for me too?

Imagine if each key on your keyboard had a capacitive touch sensor so that your entire keyboard would be one ginormous trackpad. Imagine never having to move your hands off the keyboard to move the mouse cursor. Wouldn't that be a HUGE improvement over the keyboard+mouse paradigm even for desktop computers?  

Frankly I don't see where Metro Menu improves the experience here at all. Even with such devices, Metro still isn't exactly sliced bread on the desklap. An expanded start menu would be better than the full screen smudge you get there.

2 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

Frankly I don't see where Metro Menu improves the experience here at all. Even with such devices, Metro still isn't exactly sliced bread on the desklap. An expanded start menu would be better than the full screen smudge you get there.

Uh, because it's touch-optimized perhaps?

touch-optimized

Huh? Who will need that?

I won't buy a ginormous capacitive tactile touch hyper-sensor without 3000dpi industrial-mouse like precision. It's that simple.

I want my Star Trek devices wooshy and nano-precise, aligned to my hand and eye movements so that the PC knows exactly what I point at, before I even twitch a muscle. No lame touch-optimized wuss needed.

8 minutes ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

touch-optimized

Huh? Who will need that?

I won't buy a ginormous capacitive tactile touch hyper-sensor without 3000dpi industrial-mouse like precision. It's that simple.

I want my Star Trek devices wooshy and nano-precise, aligned to my hand and eye movements so that the PC knows exactly what I point at, before I even twitch a muscle. No lame touch-optimized wuss needed.

There's no need to make a menu REQUIRE that level of precision just because you have an input device capable of that precision. There places for precision, but a menu system is not one of them. A menu system should be geared toward accessibility.

OTOH, the Windows 8 Start Menu allows you to do things with multi-touch gestures that you simply can't do with a mouse.