I gotta be honest though, even though I pretty much come around daily still, it's becoming harder and harder to do so.  I'm almost guaranteed to either find a thread about how much Microsoft sucks or why Windows 8 is terrible or why there's absolutely no hope because Apple is doing so well, and so on.  When I first started lurking here there was a lot of discussion ranging between a variety of topics, but now all the posts are either one person being super negative or replies to that person discussing the merits of topics typically blown far out of proportion.  There are still a few of you I look forward to seeing topics from (Sven Groot, "Ian2", Dr Herbie, etc.), but it's just not the same anymore, unfortunately.

I probably sound like I have "old man" syndrome talking about how I wish things were like the "gold old days" right now, but I figured I'd post this to say my bit about it, regardless.  I feel like I've been around long enough to warrant it. 

Here's to another several years with C9 and I hope this "phase" that we've been in for at least the last year, maybe two years, will pass, and we can all try to find some positives to talk about instead of just talking about how bad things are.

tl;dr version: I miss the lively conversations we used to have  Most of you guys are still pretty awesome, but I honestly feel like too many people have been scared off by the sheer volume of negativity and vitriol.  It's sad

Life is good.  Interestingly, when I first came to C9 I was just in my second or so year of university, and I was trying to get by with a severely limited knowledge of programming, the real world, etc.  Amazing to look back at where I was just that short amount of time ago and see the progress I've made.

How about you?

I agree that a few sour apples are stinking up the Coffeehouse. It's unfortunate and I have found myself ready to ban them, but they haven't done anything that requires their removal from our community besides starting pointless, uninteresting, time-wasting threads.

You have the power to change this, Niners. For example, rather than posting about how you wish it were different you could post something interesting for us to talk about, engaging Niners in meaningful conversation. It's that easy.

Ignore the trolls. Don't feed them. Make a point of just not replying to their nonsense and their threads will naturally disappear. It's that easy.

Niners own the Coffeehouse. This is your place. Do something about what's wrong. Don't just talk about it being wrong. It's that easy.

All that said, great to have you back! Make a difference!

Keep on posting,

C

What I don't see is much in the way of technical conversation or anything interesting like that. The problem is any time someone posts something like that nobody cares to reply. Seriously. People prefer to argue over the same stuff ad infinitum, that's the sort of the thing that becomes multi-page threads. Not like a thread about some technical advancement or whatever, it will be lucky if that gets even one reply.

2 hours ago, Bass wrote

What I don't see is much in the way of technical conversation or anything interesting like that.

I thought that technical conversation was the domain of the Tech Off forum ?

21 minutes ago, elmer wrote

*snip*

I thought that technical conversation was the domain of the Tech Off forum ?

The TechOff forum has always been more of a "I have this particular problem, can you help me" place.

You see lots of complains about Win8 here now as well as when Vista is released, but when Win7 comes out we praised it too.

I think it always worked that way.

So far the reason I don't install Win8 as my primary OS is a bit different. The WinPhone connecting software is still in beta. I'll wait until it's going production then do a reinstall on raw metal once.

Besides, I doubt the apple users would be able to find this place and respond back on their little fisher-price computers. j/k

Although I agree this isn't the forum for MS feedback but since this forum is supposed to be about MS related technologies, I think you can't help but have it spill over here.

Herbie

Similar blunder with Windows 8. I claim that most people expected there to be a tablet UI in addition to a traditional desktop UI experience done such that the usability of desktops is not hindered by the addition of the tablet UI. ie. If I have a desktop and upgrade to Windows 8, I don't want to learn a new "paradigm", since there are enough new things to learn if I get a Windows 8 tablet. This is like moving the locations of keys on a standard keyboard. I never buy those keyboards with weird key location or removed insert key and anyone seen using one will get quickly educated about why pianos don't come with different key layouts every couple years, only the size of keys and the timbre changes (assuming they are tuned to standard pitch).

Scientific fact is that people have a good spatial memory, and even if my house or files on my HDD might look like a mess to you, I can find things decades later as long as they haven't been moved in the interim (winners of memory championships use a memorization system that take advantage of this fact). (When I buy a bigger new HDD and upgrade OS, the smaller HDD that went out becomes a sub folder in the bigger HDD with the small HDD staying as a backup - I get both a clean slate and a snapshot in time of the upgrade, I then use folder naming and NTFS Search to find things in 1 second from 6 million files - I only have to remember one of: partial folder/file name, rough year I last used it, or the navigation path to the folder - I have 25 years of files and I can find anything I need from any year in couple seconds despite things looking entirely unorganized mess to anyone else, because only I have the spatial & time information in my head to locate them even if the file name is just "a.zip"- a large reason why I have to use custom batch files to move folders since Windows likes changing timestamp of folders when they are moved between partitions/drives which messes up the timeline in my head of when I last worked with those folders etc making sorting by modification date useless)

So that long post boils down to: Regular Joes recognize that Windows 8 has some agenda driven design decisions, forcing people to use Metro/Modern whether they need it currently or not. People will move there naturally if there is value to be found, don't expect it in "Modern V1.0"

On my desktop, the Metro UI should at most be behind a new "Metro Orb", and perhaps come from double tapping Windows-key for example. Moving mouse to desktop corners should not cause anything to happen as that makes the experience like playing Quake, trying to be extremely accurate in avoiding activation of those hotspots when you don't want them. And of course the Windows 7 start menu should be there identically or just improved rather than replaced. There are some other changes I don't like either (longer boot time for non-Windows OS when going through Windows 8 boot menu and various power user stuff hard to find now) but they are not complete show stoppers.

1 hour ago, BitFlipper wrote

I think a lot of people don't like the direction MS has been taking in the last 18-24 months or so. That is a big source of complaints and rightfully so. If no-one complains, MS might actually think they are doing the right thing.

Although I agree this isn't the forum for MS feedback but since this forum is supposed to be about MS related technologies, I think you can't help but have it spill over here.

Having constructive feedback is not the same as being negative.

Being negative is saying "Windows 8 sucks". Being constructive is saying "What are the changes in Windows 8, and what were the reasons those changes were made?". Once (and only once) you understand why the changes were made, you can come to a better discussion about whether the parameters are sound (does everyone have a touch screen?) and if they are, whether Microsoft's approach given those parameters is sound.

One of the things that I find so cool about C9 is the fact that when they talk to the developers, there's usually a really good reason behind decisions that you disagree with that surprise you because they come from a completely different direction.

For example: "Gosh, Win8 sucks because I can't get into BIOS without first going into Windows. What a PITA", followed by the video (http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Inside-Windows-8-Chris-Stevens-Boot-Environment) leaving you saying "Oh, I had completely not thought that getting the keyboard active takes seconds on the boot process, and doing this in the BIOS rather than in parallel with other Windows drivers booting slows my boot process down by an average of 2-4 seconds". Given that constraint, suddenly I feel less bad about Windows doing it in the way it is doing it.

This is why I hate all of the negativity on C9. C9 to me isn't a good place to complain that Microsoft did X, but is a totally awesome place for finding out why they made it the way they did.

Complaining is boring and easy. Understanding is harder, but it's more fun too (as any good developer should know).

That's not to say that Microsoft are always right (they often aren't). But complaining about Microsoft on C9 seems to me to just miss the potential and the awesomeness of C9. It's like going to a 5-star Michelin restaurant and complaining that the food sucks loudly in the restaurant  It's fine if that happens a couple of times, people can get on with it. It's even better if a bunch of real foodies come in and discuss the food at a high level - the chefs would love that.,

But if too many people start to complain loudly, and it becomes almost "acceptable" or "normal" for everyone to say "nom nom nom, this food is terrible. Gosh nom nom this chef is awful, yes, waiter, more please nom nom" then you shouldn't be surprised that the chefs get fed up, close the restaurant and go home.

C9 is a rare luxury. Apple has nowhere on the web quite as deep and technical as C9. Google has nowhere as awesome as C9. Microsoft only has C9. Don't screw it up by complaining too loud in their restaurant. If you don't like it, you're always free to go elsewhere.

If those changes didn't contain things that raised immediate concerns, that would be very reasonable. But if Microsoft has an agenda to move people to a new UI paradigm in which they rake in 30% or whatever, that agenda may contain design decisions that are not obviously to the clients advantage. In such business scenario, the company must manage expectations. Meaning, instead of we asking "what changed and why", they should be very upfront, prior to us getting a bad first impression from any public (preview) release, about why they changed some things for apparently the worse coming from say Windows 7 in terms of pure non-touch usage.

52 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Having constructive feedback is not the same as being negative.

Being negative is saying "Windows 8 sucks". Being constructive is saying "What are the changes in Windows 8, and what were the reasons those changes were made?". Once (and only once) you understand why the changes were made, you can come to a better discussion about whether the parameters are sound (does everyone have a touch screen?) and if they are, whether Microsoft's approach given those parameters is sound.

And there you go... If you're just going to roll up all of the issues discussed here with Windows 8 by we "complainers" as "Windows 8 sucks" then you're just as much of the problem. There have been a lot of detailed discussions here about Windows 8 issues that have gone well beyond "Windows 8 sucks". Certainly they're aren't very positive discussions and sometimes people go over the top but they do so from both sides of the argument.

One of the things that I find so cool about C9 is the fact that when they talk to the developers, there's usually a really good reason behind decisions that you disagree with that surprise you because they come from a completely different direction.

For example: "Gosh, Win8 sucks because I can't get into BIOS without first going into Windows. What a PITA", followed by the video (http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Inside-Windows-8-Chris-Stevens-Boot-Environment) leaving you saying "Oh, I had completely not thought that getting the keyboard active takes seconds on the boot process, and doing this in the BIOS rather than in parallel with other Windows drivers booting slows my boot process down by an average of 2-4 seconds". Given that constraint, suddenly I feel less bad about Windows doing it in the way it is doing it.

I would love, love, love it if C9 would provide more technical explanations behind these issues but more often than not it seems they go ignored. Microsoft apologists (not you in particular) fill the gap with labeling honest issues with "who moved the cheese" or other labels that put down the person reporting the issue or complaint. Labeling issues with "who moved the cheese" ignores the rest of the sentiment "who moved the cheese because now it's broken or more difficult".

Where's the C9 technical response for the loss of clarity of text in IE? Where's the C9 technical response for the copy/paste issues?

We need to stop excusing away issues because "it was just as bad when Windows X was released" and look at them for what they are; problems that Microsoft needs to address or respond to. Microsoft can choose to do nothing but we all know that leads us right back here.

No doubt there are some here that use these forums solely to complain about Microsoft but there are plenty of others here who will as rudely and blindly defend Microsoft. Maybe we really just need to work on respecting each others points of view.

MICROSOFT ADMITS FAILURE

We're living in an age where every official word needs to be chosen very carefully. When there are people here willing to throw MS under the bus, others will be even less sympathetic.

I guess it'd be cool to know one of the developers and grab a beer or two and talk about it, but other than that I don't expect a satisfying official response.

I like that the author chose an approach of "reviving" the disabled start menu code existing in Windows 8.

However even with these fixes in place, Windows 8 still comes with non-trivial under the hood changes which in my interpretation risk compatibility and performance changes of old applications. It's most prudent for me to wait for those who have time time and interest to sort out "bleeding edge issues". Windows 7 didn't come with such major changes and in Vista timeframe Channel 9 had done great job in communicating things ahead of time so I came in prepared to Vista, the only "show stopper" for Vista in my case was that Explorer bug that AFAIK still has not been fixed and made Vista completely unusable as a serious OS. Since that bug is gone with Windows 7, that just proves that it's a Vista problem and MS didn't care enough about Vista customers to fix a show stopper in SP. That's where Microsoft lost a great deal of trust, next step was IE9 fuzzy fonts. No fixes there either despite that being widely reported in good time before release. And then of course came all the crap with VS 2010 performance and 2012 looks and now the Windows 8 mess.

Automated testing may be wonderful but it won't find perceived, visual or usability problems or things that the test automation programmers couldn't think of. If one doesn't take care to listen to user feedback about prior to release and address those one way or another, either the complaining continues or it will stop, which means that the complainers stopped caring about your product and moved to another product or won't upgrade anymore. I have been on the "don't care/upgrade" but since MS is now at work on next release after 8 is RTM, complaining may resume, as the alternative is to jump ship and I don't care about switching one set of OS issues to another + having to learn "new layout of piano keys" so to speak.

Restored Desktop to its place With StartIsBack, computer starts to desktop. Always. Unlike other tools, which 'skip' Metro by sending keypresses, StartIsBack loads Metro alternative way and keeps it in its place.

Restored Windows 7 Start Menu and Start Button There are tons of start menu clones (check the thread here), but they're all inferior. StartIsBack restores original Windows 7 start menu (with very special magic). It's NOT a replica, it's 100% original Start Menu as you remember it, with search, drag&drop, customization, etc. Start Menu is shown on Win key, as you expect. Start button is behaving as you remember it.

Disabled hot corners By default, all but charms hot corners are disabled. You can customize which corners to show on desktop. And this works better than in any start menu clones i've tried.

Modified Start Screen Now, we have Start and Start. Start Menu and Start Screen. Both search and start programs. Isn't that schizophrenic? So! Start Screen is no longer Start Screen. It's Apps Screen and shows only Metro programs (optionally). This way, Metro and Desktop experience are separated and Start screen is just a launcher for funny Metro apps, while real work and programs run in Desktop.

1 hour ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

And there you go... If you're just going to roll up all of the issues discussed here with Windows 8 by we "complainers" as "Windows 8 sucks" then you're just as much of the problem.

No. I'm saying that people who just say "Windows 8 sucks" are the negativity problem that we have on C9.

I have no problem with valid complaints being raised on C9. I think it's great to have discussions. I just don't like some users on this forum going on about issues that we've already heard.

I think we've all established beyond all possible doubt that complaining about the start menu or the start screen interface on C9 doesn't magic a start menu into existence, so let's talk about something else.

Continually going on and on about the same exhausted avenue of complaints when the people who are in a position to do something about it aren't here or aren't listening isn't feedback, it's brooding, and it's boring.

(Again, no idea why it's 10-15 FPS in IE8 while viewed embedded here)

That said, there are people whose purpose in life appear to orbit negatively-charged criticism (as good as-) 100% of the time. I like a good solid rant but there ought to be a counter-point, a passionate statement of positive bias once in a while from the same people. And this is a Microsoft forum, so it doesn't hurt if that positive bias is about something Microsoft-related -- otherwise why are you here anyway?

Don't spend all energy on what you don't like: pour energy into what you do like (at least in a technology context). There are some threads, but could be more, about topics that people are positively passionate about.

I positively enjoy the speculative threads by Felix. His threads are examples of enthusiasm. They don't dwell on negativity but focus on the positive future developments comming out of research (and development) teams.

My 5 cents.

PS - Passive by-standing does not improve things.

44 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

No. I'm saying that people who just say "Windows 8 sucks" are the negativity problem that we have on C9.

I have no problem with valid complaints being raised on C9. I think it's great to have discussions. I just don't like some users on this forum going on about issues that we've already heard.

I think we've all established beyond all possible doubt that complaining about the start menu or the start screen interface on C9 doesn't magic a start menu into existence, so let's talk about something else.

Continually going on and on about the same exhausted avenue of complaints when the people who are in a position to do something about it aren't here or aren't listening isn't feedback, it's brooding, and it's boring.

I agree that harping on the same issue leads no where but Windows has a wide install base. Even in developer circles you'll have those that are late to the party and only now chime in resulting in the resurrection of an old complaint. Then out comes the same old "apologies" for those same complaints and the "debate" resumes. Eventually it will all die down for awhile until the next round of Microsoft gaffs. I just wish they'd have a few years were the gaffs weren't so air apparent. Then we'd have a lot less of these complaints and a lot more of "you can do that with Windows (.NET. C#. EF, LINQ, WinRT, etc)? Wow! I never knew that!"

Even sadder from a this developer's point of view Microsoft has up-ended the apple cart on the direction of desktop technologies aside from recommending we "re-imagine" our applications as Windows 8 Store Apps. Not too long ago we got our customers to bite the bullet on a WPF/SL strategy and now we're supposed to tell them to upgrade their PC's to Windows 8 so we can write apps for them as Windows 8 Store Apps? Or we could tell them to stick with WPF/SL and just suck up bugs and limitations because fixes aren't coming and we're investing their money on a development stack that's for all intents and purposes deprocated? So now developers go from discussing Microsoft technologies to a broader conversation of where they should recommend customer spend their money (Android, iOS, Web, WinRT, etc.) IMO Microsoft lost a lot of trust with their handling of W8/WinRT, WPF/SL, etc these past several years so it has a lot of us asking broader questions. 

1 hour ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

I agree that harping on the same issue leads no where but Windows has a wide install base. Even in developer circles you'll have those that are late to the party and only now chime in resulting in the resurrection of an old complaint. Then out comes the same old "apologies" for those same complaints and the "debate" resumes. Eventually it will all die down for awhile until the next round of Microsoft gaffs. I just wish they'd have a few years were the gaffs weren't so air apparent. Then we'd have a lot less of these complaints and a lot more of "you can do that with Windows (.NET. C#. EF, LINQ, WinRT, etc)? Wow! I never knew that!"

Even sadder from a this developer's point of view Microsoft has up-ended the apple cart on the direction of desktop technologies aside from recommending we "re-imagine" our applications as Windows 8 Store Apps. Not too long ago we got our customers to bite the bullet on a WPF/SL strategy and now we're supposed to tell them to upgrade their PC's to Windows 8 so we can write apps for them as Windows 8 Store Apps? Or we could tell them to stick with WPF/SL and just suck up bugs and limitations because fixes aren't coming and we're investing their money on a development stack that's for all intents and purposes deprocated? So now developers go from discussing Microsoft technologies to a broader conversation of where they should recommend customer spend their money (Android, iOS, Web, WinRT, etc.) IMO Microsoft lost a lot of trust with their handling of W8/WinRT, WPF/SL, etc these past several years so it has a lot of us asking broader questions. 

I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is HUGE. They run an entire city of developers.

The reason why you think Microsoft is crappy is because they're not very good at touting their better products, but don't mistake that for them not having written any. Here's a quick list of products supported in 2013 - it's not even all of them:

Access 2013 15
AutoRoute 2013 15
Bing Maps Desktop with Enhanced Content Pack 15
Excel 2013 15
Excel for Mac 2011 15
Expression Studio Professional 4 15
Expression Studio Ultimate 4 15
Expression Encoder Pro 4 15
GeoSynther 3.0 15
GeoSynth Viewer 3.0 15
InfoPath® 2013 15
Lync 2013 15
Lync for Mac 2011 15
MapPoint® Fleet Edition 2013 15
MapPoint® 2013 for Windows 15
MSDN Operating Systems 15
Office 365 A2 (User SL) 15
Office 365 A3 (User SL) 15
Office 365 A4 (User SL) 15
Office 365 Plan E2 (User SL) 15
Office 365 Plan E3 (User SL) 15
Office 365 Plan E4 (User SL) 15
Office Home and Student RT 2013 15
Office for Mac Standard 2011 15
Office Multi-Language Pack 2013 15
Office Professional Plus 2013 15
Office Standard 2013 15
Office Professional Plus Subscription (User SL) 15
Office Professional Plus Subscription A (User SL) 15
Office Web Applications A (User SL) 15
OneNote® 2013 15
Outlook® 2013 15
Outlook for Mac 2011 15
PowerPoint 2013 16
PowerPoint for Mac 2011 16
Project 2013 Standard 16
Project 2013 Professional 16
Publisher 2013 16
Rental Rights for Office Standard 16
Rental Rights for Office Professional Plus 16
Streets and Trips 2013 16
Visio® 2013 Professional 16
Visio® 2013 Standard 16
TechNet Plus Direct 16
Visual Studio® Professional 2012 16
Visual Studio® Professional 2012 with MSDN 16
Visual Studio® Premium 2012 with MSDN 16
Visual Studio® Ultimate 2012 with MSDN 16
Visual Studio® Test Professional 2012 with MSDN 16
Word 2013 16
Word for Mac 2011 16
SYSTEMS POOL 16
Windows Companion Subcription License 16
Windows Vista DVD Playback Pack 16
Microsoft Desktop Optimization Pack for Software Assurance 16
Microsoft Desktop Optimization Pack 2012 for Software Assurance 16
Rental Rights for Windows 16
Windows 8 Enterprise Sideloading (100 Pack) 16
Windows® 7 Partners in Learning 16
Windows® 8 Pro 16
Windows® 8 Pro with MDOP 16
Windows Virtual Desktop Access (VDA) 16
SERVERS POOL 17
Bing Maps Server 17
Bing Maps Server CAL 17
Bings Maps Server with Enhanced Content Pack 17
Bing Maps Server with Enhanced Content Pack CAL 17
Bing Maps Standard or Professional (User SL) 17
Bing Maps Standard (Services SL) 17
Bing Maps Professional (Services SL) 17
Bing Maps 25KTrx (Add-on SL) 17
Bing Maps 250KTrx (Add-on SL) 17
Bing Maps Unlimited Trx (Add-on SL) 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Branch Edition 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Enterprise Edition 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Enterprise RFID 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Standard Edition 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Branch IDC 17
BizTalk® Server 2010 Developer IDC 17
Business Intelligence Appliance 2012 17
Core CAL Suite Bridge for Office 365 (User & Device) 17
Core CAL Suite Bridge for Office 365 and Windows® Intune (User & Device) 17
Core CAL Suite Bridge for Windows® Intune (User & Device) 17
Core CAL Suite (User & Device) 17
Core Infrastructure Server Suite Standard 17
Core Infrastructure Server Suite Enterprise 17
Core Infrastructure Server Suite Datacenter 17
Data Warehouse Appliance 2012 17
Dynamics CRM Online Extra Storage 17
Dynamics CRM Online Per User 17
Dynamics CRM Online for SA 17
Enterprise CAL Suite Bridge for Office 365 (User & Device) 17
Enterprise CAL Suite Bridge for Office 365 and Windows® Intune (User & Device) 17
Enterprise CAL Suite Bridge for Windows® Intune (User & Device) 17
Enterprise CAL Suite (User & Device) 17
Exchange Enterprise CAL with Services 2013 17
Exchange Enterprise CAL without Services 2013 17
Exchange Online Archiving 17
Exchange Online Archiving for Exchange Server A (User SL) 18
Exchange Hosted Archive (User SL) 18
Exchange Hosted Archive Extra Storage (User SL) 18
Exchange Hosted Encryption (User SL) 18
Exchange Online Kiosk (User SL) 18
Exchange Online Plan 1 (User SL) 18
Exchange Online Plan 2 (User SL) 18
Exchange Online Plan 1A for Alumni (User SL) 18
Exchange Online Plan 2A (User SL) 18
Exchange Server Enterprise 2013 18
Exchange Server Standard 2013 18
Exchange Server 2007 Standard for Small Business 18
Exchange Server 2007 Standard for Small Business CAL 18
Exchange Server 2010 Standard CAL (Device & User) 18
Forefront Endpoint Protection 18
Forefront Identity Manager 2010 R2 CAL (User only) 18
Forefront Identity Manager 2010 R2 External Connector 18
Forefront Identity Manager 2010 R2 Server 18
Forefront Identity Manager 2010 R2 – Windows Live Edition 18
Forefront Online Protection for Exchange (Device and User SL) 18
Forefront Protection 2010 for Exchange Server (Device and User SL) 18
Forefront Protection Suite (Device and User SL) 18
Forefront Security for Office Communications Server (Device and User SL) 18
Forefront Protection 2010 for SharePoint (Device and User SL) 18
Forefront Protection 2010 for SharePoint for Internet Sites (Add-on SL) 18
Forefront Threat Management Gateway Web Protection Services 18
Forefront Unified Access Gateway Server 2010 18
Forefront Unified Access Gateway External Connector 2010 18
Forefront Unified Access Gateway 2010 CAL 18
Forefront Unified Access Gateway 2010 10K CAL Pack 18
GeoSynth Server 18
HPC Pack 2008 R2 Enterprise 18
HPC Pack 2008 R2 for Workstation 18
Learning Solutions Combination E-Reference Library (User SL) 19
Learning Solutions IT Academy (Services SL) 19
Learning Solutions MCP 1 Exam Vouchers/Month (Services SL) 19
Lync Online Plan 1 (User SL) 19
Lync Online Plan 2 (User SL) 19
Lync Online Plan 3 (User SL) 19
Lync Online Plan 3A (User SL) 19
Lync Server 2013 19
Lync Server Enterprise CAL 2013 19
Lync Server Plus CAL 2013 19
Lync Server Standard CAL 2013 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Enterprise Additive CAL (user & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Enterprise CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Functional Additive CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Functional CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Self Serve CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Server 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Task Additive CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics AX 2012 Task CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 Employee Self Service CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 External Connector 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 Full Use Additive CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 Limited CAL (Users & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM 2011 Limited Use Additive CAL (User & Device) 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM Server 2011 19
Microsoft Dynamics CRM Workgroup Server 2011 19
Microsoft Translator API 19
Office 365 Plan A2 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan A3 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan A4 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan E1 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan E2 – E4 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan G1 – G4 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan K1 (User SL) 19
Office 365 Plan K2 (User SL) 19
Office Web Applications with SharePoint Plan 2A (User SL) 19
Project Server 2013 20
Project Server CAL 2013 20
SharePoint™ Online Extra Storage 1 GB (Add-on SL) 20
SharePoint™ Online Extra Storage 1 GB A (Add-on SL) 20
SharePoint™ Online Plan 1 (User SL) 20
SharePoint™ Online Plan 2 (User SL) 20
SharePoint™ Server 2013 20
SharePoint™ Server Enterprise CAL 2013 20
SharePoint™ Server Standard CAL 2013 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Datacenter 1 processor license 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Parallel Data Warehouse 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Parallel Data Warehouse Developer 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Small Business 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Small Business CAL 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Web per Processor 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Workgroup CAL 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Workgroup 1 Processor License 20
SQL Server® 2008 R2 Workgroup (5 Client Add On) 20
SQL Server® 2012 Business Intelligence 20
SQL Server® 2012 CAL (Device & User SL) 20
SQL Server® 2012 Developer 20
SQL Server® 2012 Enterprise 20
SQL Server® 2012 Enterprise Core (2 pack Core License) 20
SQL Server® 2012 Standard 20
SQL Server® 2012 Standard Core (2 pack Core License) 20
System Center Configuration Manager 2007 R3 20
System Center Configuration Manager 2007 R3 Enterprise Server Management License 20
System Center Configuration Manager 2007 R3 Standard Server Management License (Standard Server ML) 20
System Center Configuration Manager 2007 R3 with SQL Server 2008 Technology 20
System Center Data Protection Manager 2010 Client Management License per User 20
System Center Data Protection Manager 2010 Client Management License per OSE 20
System Center Data Protection Manager 2010 Enterprise Server Management License 20
System Center Data Protection Manager 2010 Standard Server Management License 20
System Center Essentials 2010 21
System Center Essentials 2010 Client ML 21
System Center Essentials 2010 Server ML 21
System Center Essentials 2010 with SQL Server 2008 Technology 21
System Center Essentials Plus 2010 Client Management License Suite 21
System Center Essentials Plus 2010 Server Management License Suite 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 with SQL Server 2008 Technology 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 Standard Server Management License 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 Enterprise Server Management License 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 Client Management License per OSE 21
System Center Operations Manager 2007 R2 Client Management License per User 21
System Center Reporting Manager 2006 21
System Center Server Management Suite Enterprise 21
System Center Server Management Suite Datacenter 21
System Center Service Manager 2010 21
System Center Service Manager 2010 with SQL Server 2008 Technology 21
System Center Service Manager 2010 Client Management License (Client ML) per OSE 21
System Center Service Manager 2010 Client Management License (Client ML) per User 21
System Center Service Manager 2010 Server Management License (Server ML) per OSE 21
System Center Virtual Machine Manager 2008 R2 Client Management License per OSE 21
System Center Virtual Machine Manager 2008 R2 Client Management License per User 21
System Center Virtual Machine Manager 2008 R2 Enterprise Server Management License 21
System Center Virtual Machine Manager 2008 R2 Workgroup Edition 21
System Center 2012 Client Management Suite (Client ML) per OSE 21
System Center 2012 Client Management Suite (Client ML) per User 21
System Center 2012 Configuration Manager Client Management License (Client ML) (Student Only) 21
System Center 2012 Configuration Manager Client Management License per OSE 21
System Center 2012 Configuration Manager Client Management License per User 22
System Center 2012 Datacenter Server Management License (2-processor) 22
System Center 2012 Endpoint Protection 22
System Center 2012 Standard Server Management License (2-processor) 22
TechNet Plus Single User 22
VDI Suite 22
VDI Suite with MDOP 22
VDI Standard Suite 22
VDI Standard Suite with MDOP 22
VDI Premium Suite 22
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Microsoft makes some really awesome products. And even in the cases where they don't - usually the problem is the marketing or the UI. Microsoft has some fantastic developers and some brilliant technologies, and it's just simply not true that they are always badly made products or always "copying apple", because a lot of those products don't have an Apple equivalent (like Lync/Exchange/Office/VisualStudio/Bing/Azure/Intune/Server/IIS/Xbox just for starters). and most of them are actually pretty good.

I think perhaps I would have more sympathy with people complaining about Microsoft if they were also able to give credit where it's due. The fact is that Microsoft's products are by-and-large so good you just don't notice that they're there, so you concentrate on the bits that get in the way.

Condemning Microsoft as crappy because there's no start menu in Windows8 is equivalent to saying California is crap because one of the doors in one of the hotels doesn't have a door knob.

And saying that Microsoft are trying to copy Apple is like saying Marriott Hotels is trying to copy Costa coffee because there's a Starbucks in the foyer. Sure you can get a similar coffee, but that kind of misses the fact that the two are fundamentally different companies doing fundamentally different things. Apple is good at Phones. Microsoft is good at consoles and OSes and search and documents and business management and so on.

3 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is HUGE. They run an entire city of developers.

*snip*

Microsoft makes some really awesome products. And even in the cases where they don't - usually the problem is the marketing or the UI. Microsoft has some fantastic developers and some brilliant technologies, and it's just simply not true that they are always badly made products or always "copying apple", because a lot of those products don't have an Apple equivalent (like Lync/Exchange/Office/VisualStudio/Bing/Azure/Intune/Server/IIS/Xbox just for starters). and most of them are actually pretty good.

So because of the size of Microsoft and the number of products they produce we're supposed to ignore the specific problems they create or the broader direction they are taking with platforms such as Windows? I'm sure that will go over well with my customers. The only people I'll pity is the great engineers Microsoft has that are trapped behind politics and can't get their fantastic ideas into products that ship.

2 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

So because of the size of Microsoft and the number of products they produce we're supposed to ignore the specific problems they create or the broader direction they are taking with platforms such as Windows? I'm sure that will go over well with my customers. The only people I'll pity is the great engineers Microsoft has that are trapped behind politics and can't get their fantastic ideas into products that ship.

Well, let's wait two years and come back and see if Windows8 is a success or not. 

Only one thing is certain: complaints on C9 about Windows8 didn't magic a change into RTM, and it's even less likely to magic a change into it now that it's shipped, so all you're doing by ranting and raving about how much is sucks on C9 is just sucking all of the oxygen out of the Coffeehouse and making the whole atmosphere negative.

If your customers demand a start menu, go and install one from the Interwebs, or tell them to stick with Windows7. Problem solved.

Disagree. It hasn't been two way communication as you suggested. If that's the case, we wouldn't have so many negative threads that leads to this thread.

Informed Complaints and Debates are mostly one sided. When did you see open source people switch to close source? When did you see gun control people switch to buying machine gun is ok? It is extremely rare.

What can be two ways, is when the complain in question can be solved. For example,

1. Show Computer Icon on desktop (not shortcut) in Win8? Solvable.
2. Where is Quick Launch Bar in XP? Solvable. Evolved in Win7.
3. Where is awesome Image Backup in Win8? Still solvable.
4. Up Button. Manageable, but, still got a lot of complaints (I don't really care). Back in Win8.
5. IE10 showing IE6 pages. Solvable.
6. Metro IE cannot play Flash. Solvable.

The complaints can be originated with lack of understanding. When we provides the information that can fill the gap of his lack of understanding, his problem is solved and happy on his way. The problem is, many of these negative threads, already know what is going on, but, still unhappy about it. Until the problem is solved, the complain will escalate as expected.

Whatever Microsoft makes its decision, it will likely cause dissatisfactions. And we are seeing a lot of these threads because Microsoft messed up a lot more customers than before.

Honestly, Dovela is the only hardcore level 9000+ Microsoft fan whom has been put down by many fellow niners. I have seen it so many times that even makes me feels like he has been bullied. Do any of us actually noticed he is gone?

Yeah, I understand what you mean by tone, although I am not sure which hurts more. The "elite polite" attitude is not really helping IMO. 

8 minutes ago, magicalclick wrote

@Charles:

Yeah, I understand what you mean by tone, although I am not sure which hurts more. The "elite polite" attitude is not really helping IMO. 

It is entirely reasonable to agree to disagree. Reasonable discourse does not require one person to "win" the argument. It just requires everyone to be civil.

For instance, I recognise that many people on C9 don't like Windows8's decision to not have a start menu, and I respect (although disagree with) their opinion that it is a deficiency. The point is that they have stated their position, and those who disagree with them have stated theirs. Neither side is budging so the best that can be achieved is to agree to disagree.

That's why I keep saying that we shouldn't be having those discussions. Not I think critiscm of MS is unwelcome on C9 - far from it - but because we've already had that discussion and because most of what's posted doesn't move the conversation forwards, it just keeps echoing the same conversation over and over.

25 minutes ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

It is entirely reasonable to agree to disagree. Reasonable discourse does not require one person to "win" the argument. It just requires everyone to be civil.

Exactly.

C

3 hours ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

Well, let's wait two years and come back and see if Windows8 is a success or not. 

It's not about its success in two years. It's about problems it creates now and how we deal with them. It's also a matter of trust: do we trust Microsoft to show us a better way in the coming months or years or do we move our customers on to another technology that we feel would serve them better. As a long time developer I'd prefer to stick with Microsoft but they had made it needlessly difficult to do so.

3 hours ago, Charles wrote

@exoteric: Agreed. Nobody's saying don't criticize, we're saying be critical in a thoughtful way, also known as shared critical thinking. Let's have the conversation, but let's do it in an intelligent way. 

That goes both ways Charles. Complainer and fanboy alike. It's pretty clear that there are as many here would rudely put down a criticism as there are those who rudely criticize.

C

9 hours ago, Charles wrote

@DeathByVisualStudio: I'm not condoning either... Civility and Reason lie somewhere in the middle of the extremes you mention.

C

I keep harping on it because those complaining about the complainers don't ever call out the rude fanbois and apologists. It's as if as long as you are saying nice things about Microsoft then you can be as rude and/or arrogant as you want. If both sides aren't called out (fainboi, troll, or otherwise) in the future the extremes and rudeness that go with it will always be present here. One side or the other will plant the seed of negativity that gets things going.

1 day ago, Richard.Hein wrote

Ok, I'll try harder, and I hope lurkers like you will answer, even if it is just a, "+1", or "interesting" comment, so I know it isn't all a waste of energy.

+1

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/155290-windows-8-deeper-impressions/page__view__findpost__p__1027677

1 hour ago, TexasToast wrote

@wastingtimewithforums:  I have to agree with his points on application distribution.   If I want to make a few personal / group applications I have to either get an enterprise license or go through the app store.  Not everything you develop needs to go to the general store.   It is another thing they got wrong.   They need to really rethink some of these bone headed views.  I don't mind them adding features,  it is the removal of features that the windows 7 had that is irking most people.   To be positive, I really like that hyper-v is in the product and it is nice to have the multiuser settings saved in the cloud.   The fast bootup time is also a big plus.

If you're making the app for yourself, you don't need to go through the store or get an enterprise licence.

3 hours ago, Kental2 wrote

@DeathByVisualStudio: While I don't disagree in general with your statement, I'm curious: who would you consider to be a fanboi or apologist on channel9 right now?  Dovella was the last person I could remember that was an all-out unapologetic cheerleader.  I'm not calling you out, I'm just genuinely curious who you had in mind with that

Yeah naming people wouldn't start a flame ware here... 

Dovella was certainly a cheerleader but he wouldn't condemn people if they disagreed. I didn't mind him at all.

1 hour ago, evildictait​or wrote

*snip*

If you're making the app for yourself, you don't need to go through the store or get an enterprise licence.

I know that.   It is more or less making test apps or utility apps that I would distribute to a department or maybe a dozen people to facilitate some functions in making their job easier.   It is not always enterprise because some of these apps go outside of the company.   I am sticking with windows 7 desktop but a path forward on windows metro is not an option.  I think also LOB developers will have some of these same problems.   Also even on the phone,  if you just wanted to write your own family map and you go over the number of registered devices you have a problem.  They are taking some of the fun out of it.   Android does not have this problem by the way. ( and no I am not a fan of Android .. just sayin) 

Evil, on another subject, your a smart guy (I like a lot of your posts on the technical side),  why do you care if some of these guys * about things they don't like.  When you complain about them you become one of them and rattle their cages more.

46 minutes ago, TexasToast wrote

Evil, on another subject, your a smart guy (I like a lot of your posts on the technical side),  why do you care if some of these guys * about things they don't like.  When you complain about them you become one of them and rattle their cages more.

I was only doing it because I like to challenge opinions which I feel are too heavily biased. For this reason I kind of end up appearing really strongly Microsoft-biased on C9 because there's so little counter-balance to some of the anti-Microsoft statements made here that I routinely end up having to play devil's advocate on behalf of Microsoft just to challenge those who are being critical of it. Actually at Microsoft when I visit I'm usually seen as quite strongly critical of many of their decisions because the roles are entirely reversed (I actually raised the start menu with the UX team so often during January last year that it was almost a catchphrase).

I originally complained about complaining just because it felt like someone needed to point out the obvious (indeed so obvious that at least two other people have opened threads to note the fact): that excessive complaining on C9 was creating a negative atmosphere and clearly wasn't solving the problems that were being brought up, and so I thought rather than debating the issues (which had already been debated to death), that we should all call it quits and decide that (for example) Windows 8 doesn't have a start menu, and that everyone on C9 is aware that some other people on C9 think that this is a bad thing.

I didn't want to halt rational discourse on the (or any) subject; I'm certainly opposed to blanket censorship of any topic on C9 -  I just really wanted the negativity to just halt for a short while to let people catch their breath and allow some more positive threads to reach the top of C9 and stop scaring away some of our more interesting contributors with excessive negativity.

I never really expected that my suggestion would be met with such resistance. Perhaps I was naive to think that having pointed out the negativity that those on both sides of the undying debatapocalypse threads would see the effect that being negative pushes good contributors away and doesn't really solve any problems, but I can see now that I was probably wrong to think that. I suppose it's pretty clear that this kind of meta-complaining didn't really help, so I've decided to stop complaining about it, and will in future just ignore the toxic threads and hope they burn themselves out.

On the other hand, It was fun to watch some people taking it up a notch by complaining about the meta-complaining.

I'll be the first to say that I'm not perfect, and I deserve a fair slice of the blame I suppose for fanning the flames. But anyway, it's a new year and nearly a new Spring - and there's always time to try something new and go in a different direction.

So anyway, here's to C9 in 2013. May it be better, more positive, more interesting and more friendly to all of our contributors! Yay us!