Windows 8: I am truely worried and I need answers.

It kind of reminds me of when Microsoft was soft on piracy

Microsoft has never been soft on piracy. Earlier versions of Windows were easier to pirate for the simple reason that anti-piracy measures across the whole industry were less sophisticated. There has never been a policy of "if we let them pirate now we'll earn more in the future". No sane business would do such a clearly self-damaging policy.

1 hour ago, WhatDoYouMean wrote

Clearly are my worries and questions not that much related to testing the beta and testing the beta obviously does not answer my questions. People who HAVE tested the beta still have the same questions and concerns as I do.

If they are just opinions on the Internet, how do you know they are from people who HAVE tried the beta. If people shouted loudly enough that Windows8 had deprecated support for keyboards would you believe them? No. If you want an objective view on whether Windows8 will be good for you, the only option is to try it out.

Remember. If I shouted loudly that keyboards weren't supported in Windows8, and someone else reposted it, and a few journalists and irate blog-posts later everyone believes that Microsoft are ditching the keyboard-input, that doesn't make it true. Microsoft's can't ever ditch legacy applications because it's the key selling point of Windows. WinRT won't be replacing Win32 in the next decade at least for this reason.

Worrisome it is when people say things like "Do not worry, you can still write legacy applications.". You don't say? I never asked if I would be able to write "legacy" applications and that was not part of my questions but because Microsoft stated WinRT is the future, sticking with "legacy application" is not a viable solution for an evolving business.

Microsoft hasn't said WinRT is the future. It's just added it to the mix. WinRT is no more the future than .NET was, or HTML5 is. If you want to write your apps in C#/WinForms or C++/MFC or even VB6 then you'll be able to continue business-as-usual. WinRT is an new choice. It is not an imposition of change.

@JoshRoss:

Regardless, there is going to be a huge vacuum of people worldwide with lots of pirated software they can not upgrade in the next 5 years. Those people are not going to switch to Mac because of their economic situation. There is probably some way to fill that vacuum and make money.

I don't think online instances of software, where you pay per instance or a subscription will work for the stuff people pirate.

I think there is another more clever solution. Obviously MSFT won't let you build an app store within an app either.

Some people call WinRT a UI toolkit, but this says otherwise:

http://channel9.msdn.com/events/BUILD/BUILD2011/HW-747T

I think they actually expect the Adobes of the world to go full in.

20 minutes ago, evildictaitor wrote

*snip*

Microsoft has never been soft on piracy. Earlier versions of Windows were easier to pirate for the simple reason that anti-piracy measures across the whole industry were less sophisticated. There has never been a policy of "if we let them pirate now we'll earn more in the future". No sane business would do such a clearly self-damaging policy.

Wa wa wa what? Clearly, if customers are pirating your software, that means that they are not paying for your competitor's either. And then it just becomes a waiting game. And who won that again?

Dongles have been around for years before online activation, Autodesk probably would have gone out of business without them. Even without dongles, Microsoft could have tried harder to prevent people from using unlicensed software. I vaguely recall a time when you could install Office with a serial number that was something stupid like 11111-1111111111-1111111. 

-Josh

@JoshRoss:

I recall a time when you could install Office with a serial number that was something stupid like

The CS5 series of Adobe cracks was a simple host file change to send the activation web host to the localhost loopback address, (no I did not steal Adobe CS5. I purchased a valid license), but I know this because so many people around me did.

https://www.google.com/#q=adobe+cs5+host+file+patch

Clearly Adobe knew that people could edit their hosts file easily. This type of flagrant ease of piracy where you would think they did it intentionally will no longer fly.

I can think of at least a dozen ways to monetize the upgrade vacuum over time right now.

@1001011: I've begrudgingly purchased Photoshop CS5.5 recently, and while it performs admiralty, I would rather pay less. I've also purchased Pixelmator, with the hope that having enough money floating around for indies, someone will come up with a truly competitive product and drive prices down across the market.

-Josh

@JoshRoss:

Josh, I am not necessarily talking about a competitive product.

I am talking about filling the vacuum left behind by the reality of a world full of software theft and the likes of people like Kim Dotcom. I think it's a bit premature to count out the world's hex editors at this point though. I wouldn't invest in this until at least 6-12 months after W8's release if no WinRT apps have been pirated and no Cydia for Win shows up. But by that time it may be too late.

To answer one of the OPs original questions, you will be able to side load.

See for an example:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-crm-partner-builds-first-ever-windows-8-tablet-app-for-the-enterprise/12169

1 hour ago, 01001011 wrote

If Microsoft creates a store authority for most personal end users, a lot of people won't be able to afford to use the same software anymore(because they can't pay for it). The providers can lower their prices, but we know this not to be the case as they associate windows with big margins. There will be no $9.99 Windows version of Photoshop.

While I'm pretty much against locking down desktop PCs to the point where they become like a cable TV service, I really don't have much sympathy for people suddenly not being able to afford to continue using software they stole to begin with.

Regarding Photoshop, this package is a classic example and demonstration that software piracy really does increase the cost of software. There is no real demand for a Photoshop alternative because everyone just pirates Photoshop. Without a demand for an alternative, the only competitors are crappy FOSS packages that professionals won't touch with a ten foot pole. Without that competition, Adobe has no reason to lower their price. The market has demonstrated that it can bear the price of Photoshop because professionals don't have another choice -- all because piracy of Photoshop has eliminated any desire to have a viable competitor. 

@evildictaitor:

There I fixed that for ya:

Remember. If I shouted loudly that keyboards were supported well in Windows8, and some other Microsoft apologist reposted it, and a few journalists and irate, Microsoft Kool-Aid drinking blog-posts later everyone believes that Microsoft is including awesome the keyboard-input, that doesn't make it true. Microsoft is ditching legacy applications because they are trying to emulate Apples success but don't realize that ship has already sailed. WinRT won't be replacing Win32 in the next decade but don't tell Microsoft that. They're too busy chasing Apple's rainbows and unicorns than to be bothered by their needs of their customers.

The reality is that W8 is designed for touch. Keyboard + mouse support is an attempt to approximate that. Microsoft has done a pretty poor job there and by providing a metro experience that is forced upon users every time they hit the start button that it creates a source of pain for the millions of every day desktop users. They've taken away the visual discover and made everything take more clicks, more uncovering, more squinting. The task strip (or what ever you call it) is a prime example. No "x" close UI (like Metro IE has for its tabs), The thumbnails are too small on anything smaller than a 12" display, no label or tooltip to tell you what the * you are looking at, and it's problematic on multiple monitor setups.

I know, I know... Like every good dictator, "well they don't have to use it". And IMO that's probably what's going to happen.

@Craig_Matthews:

Hmmmm, interesting.

As well as iOS I have been known to code Android apps, and while you can't really do anything with Apple, you could innovate Android to and invade the W8 territory.

The Atrix 4G laptop dock idea could be modified to the desktop for instance, allowing people to leverage the low cost of Android applications on their custom desktop hardware and printers.

The average price of Adobe titles for Android tablets is about $9.99 for instance:

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=adobe&c=apps

Of course the Android dock would have to power multiple monitors and the whole battery situation would have to be figured out, but this could be a way. I of course will not share the best way to monetize that situation if it turns out to become reality.

* To be fair the webtop dock exists as well, but device support is not there either in the dock or the software:

http://www.amazon.com/Motorola-89485N-Entertainment-Center-Packaging/dp/B004OVEJ8K/

You can use something like Google Cloudprint however:

http://www.google.com/cloudprint/learn/

5 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

WinRT won't be replacing Win32 in the next decade at least for this reason.

No, WinRT won't be replacing Win32 because Win32 never had any significant foothold. On personal touchscreen tablet devices that is.  

7 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

These applications are unlikely to be built for Metro, and there are no restrictions for non-metro applications.

640 K much? 

7 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

Don't use Windows8 appstore if you don't agree to the terms of use.

Or go to Cuba?

7 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

In those cases, don't use WinRT or the Windows8 appstore. Legacy development for the desktop will still be an option. Just not for Metro or for WOA.

In other news DOS applications will too still be an option, why don't we write those? Customers don't want them? 

I have to agree with you, we do live in democracy and Microsoft has every right to screw its customers, but we don't have to not complain and be idle until they release it. People complain in early stages and you and Paolo get annoyed because "Microsoft has not divulged their plans" but after it hits beta and when Microsoft does finally announce all the details it'll be all over because feature changes in those stages won't be accepted and we will be forced to to wait 4 years for another version, when the cycle repeats. 

I have a feeling (but that might be just me) that people want to write serious business applications for tablets, unfortunately Apple doesn't care for that (for reasons unknown to mankind), Android doesn't work well with tablets and classic linux is still a joke on anything non-server. WinRT was supposed to be solution to the tablet problem, but it seems MS is going to screw it in a very Apple-like fashion (technical brilliance with any defects introduced consciously and on purpose). People have investments in Windows, it's not like "Microsoft is going to shoot themselves in the foot, what is it to you?" - it will affect people. 

2 hours ago, RoyalSchrubber wrote

In other news DOS applications will too still be an option, why don't we write those? Customers don't want them? 

Actually they won't on x64, but that's a different story.

If your customers want you to build Metro apps, then sucks to be you - you'll have to agree to the terms that Microsoft puts on the appstore. That's no different to the hundreds of thousands of shop-owners who get mad that credit card companies take a bit of their profits. If that's how the customer wants to do business, then you'll just have to take the hit and pass the cost down to them. That's how business works - and it's how it works on every other device in the world. Sony takes a cut of Playstation games, Google takes a cut of money spent through Google Wallet, Paypal take their share and Apple take 30% of your subscriptions via the iPhone. Microsoft isn't inventing a new evil way of doing business here. In fact they seem to be unique in that they are committed to letting you make money from writing applications for the desktop without giving them a cut. Try doing that for the playstation, or the iPhone.

I have a feeling (but that might be just me) that people want to write serious business applications for tablets, unfortunately Apple doesn't care for that (for reasons unknown to mankind), Android doesn't work well with tablets and classic linux is still a joke on anything non-server. WinRT was supposed to be solution to the tablet problem, but it seems MS is going to screw it in a very Apple-like fashion (technical brilliance with any defects introduced consciously and on purpose). People have investments in Windows, it's not like "Microsoft is going to shoot themselves in the foot, what is it to you?" - it will affect people. 

It might affect people on WOA where the devices are currently going to be locked down (but no more locked down than every other tablet on the market), but it won't affect you on desktop machines. Pretty much any program you have for Windows7 will work out of the box on Windows8 on the same desktop that you were already going to deploy it on. Metro is new, but it's not mandatory. If you don't like it, don't use it. Build your own fullscreen app on the desktop and users won't be able to tell the difference.

Confirmed: http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/No-escape-from-the-store-for-the-plebs

Microsoft no longer sells an operating system. They sell an application for cable-TV device called "PC".

2 minutes ago, WhatDoYouMean wrote

Confirmed: http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/No-escape-from-the-store-for-the-plebs

Microsoft no longer sells an operating system. They sell an application for cable-TV device called "Tablet".

Fixed that for you. Microsoft doesn't believe in PCs anymore :/

@1001011: And I'll add that if Microsoft somehow decided private deployment shouldn't be allowed in the future, I'll nail it as a valid reason to stop upgrading past a previous version of that version.

People buy new OS for more functions, not for less functions. We don't need an OS that's more limiting than a previous one. If it's for security, it's okay because we understand convenience usually decrease with security, and that could justify the inconvenience. Other than that, there's little reason to "upgrade" to a more limiting OS.

Your questions are reasonable and logical.

You are not obliged to write Metro apps and Metro is just a layer over Windows 7 on Windows 8 PC's

Metor at the end of the day is mainly aimed at tablets pc's. Do you really see companies using touch screens do run accounts customer databases etc. in their every day business and before some says yes do you think we will be writting software with touch screens other than testing.

Touch screens will never replace the keyboard for every day business. If you for example delpoy dotnetframework windows apps at present of course they will still work they will just not have the metro pinch slide and all of that. Do you think Adobe will rewrite all their products just for metro and give MS a cut.

4 minutes ago, simtouch wrote

Your questions are reasonable and logical.

You are not obliged to write Metro apps and Metro is just a layer over Windows 7 on Windows 8 PC's

Well, no.

Metor at the end of the day is mainly aimed at tablets pc's. Do you really see companies using touch screens do run accounts customer databases etc. in their every day business and before some says yes do you think we will be writting software with touch screens other than testing.

Why are you conflating the Metro design and touch screens? For example, are you not able to use the Zune client (a perfect Metro design sample) with a keyboard and mouse?

Touch screens will never replace the keyboard for every day business.

Never say never. In fact "touch screens will never replace a keyboard" has been shown to be provably false in phones.

Do you think Adobe will rewrite all their products just for metro and give MS a cut.

Yes, asbolutely.