Windows 8 Start Menu via Start Button

1 day ago, Craig_Matthews wrote

This is incorrect. ...These are the constructive criticisms ...

You are mis-reading my use of the word "only" in "Microsoft only listens to constructive feedback".

I am not saying that Microsoft will listen to constructive feedback.

I am saying that Microsoft will not listen to feedback that is not constructive.

There is a subtle difference there.

1 day ago, evildictaitor wrote

*snip*

You are mis-reading my use of the word "only" in "Microsoft only listens to constructive feedback".

I am not saying that Microsoft will listen to constructive feedback.

I am saying that Microsoft will not listen to feedback that is not constructive.

There is a subtle difference there.

I can see how you can see that. I was mostly responding to this:

 If you say "Using the new start menu has made me less efficient", Microsoft might engage with you.

I realize, it's 'might' --- but what I was trying to convey is that the only engagement anyone with constructive criticism has gotten from Microsoft is a few blog posts telling everyone why they're wrong, and this message board filled with people who can't fathom why someone might want to do more than two or three things at a time on a desktop computer -- as if we haven't been using Windows for a reason for almost 20 years. It's laughable.

1 hour ago, Craig_Matthews wrote

I realize, it's 'might' --- but what I was trying to convey is that the only engagement anyone with constructive criticism has gotten from Microsoft is a few blog posts telling everyone why they're wrong, and this message board filled with people who can't fathom why someone might want to do more than two or three things at a time on a desktop computer -- as if we haven't been using Windows for a reason for almost 20 years. It's laughable.

The problem is that people are arguing against Metro, or against the start-menu when that decision was made many moons ago - it's a key feature of Windows8 and Microsoft have already battled and user-tested and focus-grouped those big features to death.

If you say "Hmm, the metro control panel for wireless routers is kind of inconsistent and I have to keep going to my desktop to fix that" then Microsoft might listen. If you say "ZOMFG MICRO$UCK IS TEH FAIL" they'll delete your email or stop reading then and there.

Also, it's not worth talking about (however politely or constructively) bringing back your start-menu or ditch the appstore they're not listening or any other "key" decision in Windows. Those discussions have all been had, and Microsoft have decided to say they're not going to. If Microsoft did put the start-menu back they'd have to redesign the Metro UI and slip Windows8 by a year - and lose a billion dollars in doing so. It's just not going to happen this late in the product cycle.

@evildictaitor: no. Think most people here are WP7 users that loves the way metro works on the phone and believe metro provide an awesome user experience.

What people (I) complain about is the constant context swith between metro and the traditional desktop, the awfull multi monitor eperience and the fact that you cannot see more than one program on the monitor at the same time.

They should make a desktop version wich has the option to open Metro start menu via the orb and a pad version wich has the option to goto desktop mode (current version).

Problem solved.

5 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

*snip*

The problem is that people are arguing against Metro, or against the start-menu when that decision was made many moons ago - it's a key feature of Windows8 and Microsoft have already battled and user-tested and focus-grouped those big features to death.

They may well have made the decision many moons ago, that does not mean it was the correct one. Vista was user tested thoroughly and that did not stop a backlash, and makes me think of this

"No matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back. -Turkish Proverb"

I also think they need to do their testing globally, and not just in America (if they don't already).

Also, it's not worth talking about (however politely or constructively) bringing back your start-menu or ditch the appstore they're not listening or any other "key" decision in Windows. Those discussions have all been had, and Microsoft have decided to say they're not going to. If Microsoft did put the start-menu back they'd have to redesign the Metro UI and slip Windows8 by a year - and lose a billion dollars in doing so. It's just not going to happen this late in the product cycle.

I agree, I don't see that happening, but this issue will not disappear. I have dillied and dallied with Metro, and each time you build a metro app, it is full screen, so you then have to drag the app from the top to close it (it also installs it onto your start screen, each time you build), click the desktop tile and then click stop in visual studio, not very pleasant at all.

My personal feelings are that complaints about Windows 8 are a bit like "water off a ducks back", Microsoft have decided to hit the tablet market with the biggest punch they have at the expense of the desktop, and for Web developers or people not doing metro development i.e. 90% of their current developer base, it makes no sense to upgrade

10 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

*snip*

 "ZOMFG MICRO$UCK IS TEH FAIL"

Sorry but that's your interpretation of any criticism of Microsoft. There are some people who just like living with their head buried in the sand (or in your case under a tin foil hat).

The start menu/orb will come back in the RTM version of windows 8.   The CP version of windows 8 is beta and microsoft is looking for feedback on the "new" stuff.  The best way to get feedback was to force people to use the "new" stuff if they chose to run the beta. 

So far my biggest complaint and why I have switched back to windows 7 wasn't so much the missing start menu (although this was reason #2) was that the included Hyper-V was less functional than the Window Virtual PC in windows 7. 

I couldn't get USB sharing to work nor clipboard copy.  Also the screen resolution choices were very limited, and you can't seem dynamically adjust the screen resolution by dragging the corner of the vitual window.

I say #1 priority is get Hyper-V in win8 more functional and bring back the start menu (at least for deskotp users)

1 hour ago, pathfinder wrote

The start menu/orb will come back in the RTM version of windows 8.   The CP version of windows 8 is beta and microsoft is looking for feedback on the "new" stuff.  The best way to get feedback was to force people to use the "new" stuff if they chose to run the beta. 

And it'll come with a pony too I suppose. There's no evidence this is or will be the case, and I don't see how removing the button graphic would even help "force" people to try out the new UI.

The only "forcing" going on here is forcing desktop windows users to deal with the Metro app UI & ecosystem to artificially inflate the user base for Windows tablets. And that's something that sadly looks like it will continue to RTM.

21 hours ago, DCMonkey wrote

There's no evidence this is or will be the case, and I don't see how removing the button graphic would even help "force" people to try out the new UI.

There are some big egos blocking any likely concession to the very public desktop user complaints.

It's looking like desktop users are going to be expected to make compromises in order to run the "no-compromises" Win-8

"It doesn't work well on multi-monitors." - A small percentage of consumers have multi-monitor setups. While the concern may be valid, it's not important enough to put a lot of effort into it. Multi-monitor users are generally more tech-savvy and are thus more willing to put in effort to get their setup working.

"I can't see more than two apps at once." - If my own experience is any indicator, most users live in a maximized web browser. They won't even notice the change.

"I can't sideload metro apps into non-enterprise copies of Windows 8." - How many users side-load apps into their iPads? A tiny percentage. If you want people to use your app, you put it in the App Store.

Microsoft has made a bet that tablets will take over the market currently held by desktops and laptops in the home. And I think they made the right bet. Tablets are already selling almost as many units and are predicted to take over in a year or two. The home of the future will have smart TVs, tablets, and smartphones. The PC will become a hobbyist device, only used by the hardcore PC gamers and geeks.

12 minutes ago, spivonious wrote 

Microsoft has made a bet that tablets will take over the market currently held by desktops and laptops in the home. And I think they made the right bet. Tablets are already selling almost as many units and are predicted to take over in a year or two. The home of the future will have smart TVs, tablets, and smartphones.  

Part of Steve Sinofsky's legacy will be to ensure that he positioned Microsoft as competitively as possible to negate the proliferation of Apple and Android devices. It's not that they have made a bet, insofar as them pouring every possible resource into the tablet platform. If things don't work out, the Windows team cannot be blamed for not doing their best

The PC will become a hobbyist device, only used by the hardcore PC gamers and geeks.

Don't forget that pretty much every business in America and Europe, runs on Office Exchange, Word, Excel and so on, so the death of the PC in the home is a reasonable assumption, but if you acknowledge that Office makes give or take 50% of Microsoft's complete revenue, the PC is here to stay because Office is not going to be ready (if ever) for a tablet for at least another decade.

@vesuvius: Right, I was focusing on the home, since that's where tablets are really replacing PCs. I think we'll see a more business-focused update with Windows 9.

Even now though, you could take your Win8 tablet, plug in a keyboard, and do basic tasks in Office. They just need to tweak the UI for touch and I don't see any office workers having a problem with it.

1 hour ago, spivonious wrote

Microsoft has made a bet that tablets will take over the market currently held by desktops and laptops in the home. And I think they made the right bet.

If this is the mindset, then Win8 deserves to tank. They drank too much koolaid. And not even their own koolaid.

Tablets are already selling almost as many units

Plain wrong.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-the-ipad-is-outselling-every-single-pc-2012-3?nr_email_referer=1

Everyone gets hyped about this quote: "Apple CEO Tim Cook just showed an amazing slide at the launch event for the new iPad.   Apple sold 15.4 million iPads last quarter. That's more than any PC maker's TOTAL PC sales during the same quarter."

but it seems no one actually read the graph or understood the text for that matter. What it means is that Apple sold slightly more iPads than HP sold PCs. THAT's ALL. If you combine the sales figures of HP, Lenovo, Dell and Acer, the picture becomes very different. And if you add the tons of smaller PC makers into the mix as well (and there are lots of them), the picture gets even more unimpressive for the iPad.

Also, let's not forget that you just don't need to replace your PC that often anymore. I am running a Core 2 Duo 6420 with Windows 7 and it runs just fine. Even most newer games seem to work. And this on 2006 tech essentially. And Win8 can run on the same hardware as well.

Imagine running a game from 2002 or Windows XP on 1996 hardware.. and because we've reached the point where even years old PC hardware is good enough for most tasks, there is no need to replace PCs as often. Given this, the PC sales are actually even impressive.

The home of the future will have smart TVs, tablets, and smartphones. The PC will become a hobbyist device, only used by the hardcore PC gamers and geeks.

Wasn't this utopia supposed to happen already with the internet settop box, the net PC, and the netbook?

Anyway, I wouldn't count on it. You can't do productive work on these devices. Try making a spreadsheet on an tablet. What could happen is that you plug-in a mouse, a keyboard and a display into a tablet to to do your work.. but then you end up with a notebook/desktop PC again. And for that, the classical Windows shell is the far better GUI than the forced Metro mix you get with Win8.

@wastingtimewithforums: You made lots of good points. Another thing is that the number of iPads sold doesn't necessarily reflect lost sales to PC makers. Did people actually forgo the purchase of a PC or forego the replacement of an existing PC because of the purchase of an iPad? Or did they forgo dining out, going to the movies, or buying a few hardback books?

Right now, I need another PC in my house like I need hole in my head. However, I could see the utility of being able to bring something larger than a phone with me into the cr@pper. When there comes a time that I need to replace any of my PCs, they're going to be replaced by another PC. A tablet's not going to do it.

1 hour ago, wastingtimewithforums wrote

Anyway, I wouldn't count on it. You can't do productive work on these devices. 

You say that, but I've heard of companies that now don't have any tower PCs and do everything on laptops, and tablets are closer to laptops than laptops are to PCs, and several of my colleagues don't have tower PCs at all - they just have a laptop at home.

The only bit that's missing between that and a tablet is that I can't imagine life without a keyboard. Tapping a screen just is too painful for typing all day.

The other bit that's missing of course, is that the software for tablets just doesn't cut it. If I have to spend my life battling brightly coloured blocks and swishy animations from Apple, Google and Microsoft's tablet forays rather than being able to do meaningful "real" work on a professional looking and well thought-through device (like my laptop) then I'm just not interested.

I think the PC will be replaced by an array of devices that will get progressively smaller and more capable over the coming decades. Eventually all you'll need is your phone. Dock it to a "desktop" or project it as your desktop; either way the box between your legs that keeps you warm in the wee hours of nighttime coding will be gone. Most of the heavy lifting will be done in the cloud. My irritation with Microsoft and W8 is that they've jumped the shark and are leveraging the install base of Windows to try and force a tablet agenda long before the OS and hardware is really ready for it. There are simple things you can do with a desktop today (i.e. use multiple monitors) that you won't be able to do with the next generation or two of tablet hardware. So why or why Microsoft do you release an OS where the multi-monitor support just sucks? The answer as someone said on a previous thread, "big egos".

44 minutes ago, evildictaitor wrote

*snip*

You say that, but I've heard of companies that now don't have any tower PCs and do everything on laptops, and tablets are closer to laptops than laptops are to PCs

No, unless we're talking about convertibles.

Just how often have you seen someone using a notebook like this?:

That workflow will get painful within minutes.