We all recall how Vista's PR went post-launch but at this point in Vista's release cycle everyone was more positive than this even given the development issues and features getting dropped. 

Seems Microsoft as a company is really stone-walling many of the complainers too, failing to provide believable justifications or explanations for why things are the way they are.  

Still, I think my "computer savvy" brother in law will really like the new modality.

Windows 8 ARM devices are for people who want an alternative to an iPad.  Hardware wise I would expect a range of devices ranging from cheap all the way up to exotic.

Windows 8 Non-Arm devices are for everyone who also want a traditional PC type option.

When it hits the market I think that the differing price points between the two hardware platforms will be a great boon in helping  "us" understand our own requirements as well as differentiating Windows 8 from previous generations of Windows.

Go on then, tell me it isn't that simple.

If they just added a 'don't use metro start screen' option for the desktop then I think a lot of desktop users will be a lot more happy about upgrading.  MS do seem to be expecting tablet users to be the majority.

Herbie

1 hour ago, Dr Herbie wrote

@Ian2: The 'not simple' bit (IMHO) is that the start screen will force desktop users to act like tablet users -- and that's quite a disconnect.

If they just added a 'don't use metro start screen' option for the desktop then I think a lot of desktop users will be a lot more happy about upgrading.  MS do seem to be expecting tablet users to be the majority.

Herbie

But without the Start Screen, I don't think Windows 8 offers enough on the surface to cause users to want to upgrade. After using Windows 8 on my main machine since the beta came out, I have to admit that I'm used to the start screen now and am just waiting for some better metro apps. The Win+I and Win+C shortcuts needs to be more visible though; the hot corners with the mouse is something I almost never use.

Microsoft said more or less "not many folks use media center the stats show us this fact" but in the last 2 versions of WMC very little has been done to promote it.  it's a "Hidden feature" that i bet 70-90 % of users have never even seen and even if they have seen it very few of them have a cable card slot to get use of one of the key features .. or a tuner card for that matter. so now it's going to be an addon for windows 8.

I rather suspect that the folks at MS have a fear that if they did not push metro it would not take off and go mainstream and wind up like WMC soon down the road.

so they "bet the farm" on it.

problem is that for a can't even begin to count how many users  the new metro start screen will be a deal breaker as it stands now with forcing it on users.

IMHO they should have just done two versions of windows and let folks pick the one they want.

if metro and the tablet are as great as they think they are the market would show this with the sales numbers....   that's a really good "stat" to go by.

there are problems with the two versions idea yes, but I see problems with the "all in one" method also.

nope, it is not a PR problem, not how MS sees it. The people who complains don't know what they are talking about. Those people just try two hours, which is not enough to indicate Start Screen is lacking in any way.

In fact things like Up button should be permentatly removed from any future Windows as it is how many C9 people also suggested.

@figuerres:

Yeah, I think so, one reason WMC failed is because very few people know it is in Windows because it wasn't forced. Although there are many ways to slap information in front of customers, for example, have advertisement on cheap places.

When was the last time you saw Android or Apple releasing pre-consumer technology for the news outlets to tear to shreds?

Metro mode doesn't make sense if you don't have apps or an app-store and the interface didn't work well enough in the Developer Preview for people to see the point. It also takes a week or so to get used to, but most people tried it once, said "this is icky" and then took to the blog-o-sphere to spout nonsense. It's almost fashionable these days to complain about Windows8 on twitter, blogs and news-stories, and Microsoft aren't doing anything to control the bad press like Google and Apple do with their products.

Microsoft have also made the mistake of telling people what won't be in Windows8, rather than what will. Apple don't point out that iPads don't have DVD drives, or that you can't run programs in a classic windowed desktop mode on their tablets. Microsoft shouldn't have said anything about it either.

Microsoft should also have specific logic in the DP and CP to prevent you running it in a VM. Windows8 DP/CP completely suck in a VM, and that's how most people have been running it up till now, and exactly how most people won't be using it when it gets released.

The shame is that metro is actually quite usable now, but once again Microsoft has allowed half its user-base to get so terrified of Windows8 that they'll ask PC-World or Walmart for the "Windows7 version please, because I hear the Windows8 one wakes up at night and scares children" without even trying it.

Nobody else does PR quite like Microsoft.

Steve Ballmer is known for repeating the words "Developers, Developers, Developers!", the Windows team decided to perturb its core developer base, marginalise and sideline them, but it is they that will make the platform shine.

I have gone back to Web development for now, as I cannot bet on Microsoft's commitment to anything.

15 minutes ago, vesuvius wrote

Steve Ballmer is known for repeating the words "Developers, Developers, Developers!", the Windows team decided to perturb its core developer base, marginalise and sideline them, but it is they that will make the platform shine.

++

Windows 8 "good idea": 44.9m hits on Google

Windows 8 "bad idea": 7.5m hits on Google

Windows 8 "great": 2830m hits on Google

Windows 8 "terrible": 91.6m hits on Google.

Seems like a lot of people actually quite like Win8 :/

Windows 8 "bad": 745m hits on Google

And next on Fox News...Flying Pigs!

Windows8 "easy" 1160m hits on Google

Windows 8 "good" 1720m hits on Google

45 minutes ago, blowdart wrote

Windows 8 killer pigeon : About 24,300,000 results (0.12 seconds)

The best bit is that this thread is now the top hit for that

It wasn't supposed to be a scientific study. It was just an indication that whilst some people are very loudly objecting to Win8, that doesn't mean that everyone hates it.

evildictator is wrong: 17.3M hits on Google.

You're right; not scientific at all nor an even a close approximation of scope. These kinds of searches are worthless because they pick up stuff like:

"Whilst Windows 8 suxx a$$ iOS is good". Of course you knew this when you posted your "proof".

 

It wasn't supposed to be a scientific study. It was just an indication that whilst some people are very loudly objecting to Win8, that doesn't mean that everyone hates it.

23 seconds ago, Heywood_J wrote

Wrong.  Those search results are 100% meaningless, due to the fact that Google sucks.  

Fine. Whatever. It was just a mini-experiment.

And for the record, you get similar results on Yahoo and Bing as well.

3 hours ago, evildictaitor wrote

Seems like a lot of people actually quite like Win8 :/

I'm just reacting to this fraudulent statement that was based on your search results "indications".

"Upgrades" are not really an issue. The issue is new hardware purchases over the next 3-5 years, and how the software will influence buyers' choices.

Buyers of tablets will hopefully be attracted by the Metro UI, as it's well suited to it.

Buyers of laptops/desktops, not so much, and by not providing the option for maintaining the current UI, as the default UI, MS are giving buyers justification to consider alteratives, such as a Mac.

Having suffered the Vista backlash, I just can't understand why MS would cut their own throat by not allowing people to remove such an obvious barrier to sales, and allow laptop/desktop buyers to choose their default UI - Metro or Classic. The only thing I can put it down to, is some huge egos getting in the way.

-Josh

C

Having suffered the Vista backlash, I just can't understand why MS would cut their own throat by not allowing people to remove such an obvious barrier to sales, and allow laptop/desktop buyers to choose their default UI - Metro or Classic. The only thing I can put it down to, is some huge egos getting in the way.

Wouldn't experience with the Vista backlash (and Win7 success) actually reinforce that rolling back to the previous version (or providing an option to do so) isn't necessarily the way to approach situations like this? Win7 mostly didn't roll anything back from Vista to XP. It kept the Vista start menu, Vista Explorer, Vista Control Panel, Vista visual theme, Vista driver and security models etc. The changes it did make, like the taskbar, were about moving forward to something new, not rolling back to XP. 

Even if there is a backlash to Win8 I would hope that Win9 is about solving whatever problems people have in new ways, not rolling back to the Win7 approach.

Why should Microsoft care, they get the same license fee anyway. Oh no you are buying a slightly older version of Windows from us that still has like 90 years of copyright left on it, what ever shall we do.

Let's be honest here, there isn't going to be some mass migration of people to Linux over this. If anything a mass "migration" (or "stay in place") to Windows 7.

Business buyers (Win8-Pro etc) will have the option of downgrading ofter purchase, to Win7.

Consumers however, will either have to accept any compromises, or consider alternatives, such as Mac.

1 day ago, figuerres wrote

I think the windows 8 / metro / startmenu thing is like the windows media center but in reverse.

Microsoft said more or less "not many folks use media center the stats show us this fact" but in the last 2 versions of WMC very little has been done to promote it.  it's a "Hidden feature" that i bet 70-90 % of users have never even seen and even if they have seen it very few of them have a cable card slot to get use of one of the key features .. or a tuner card for that matter. so now it's going to be an addon for windows 8.

I rather suspect that the folks at MS have a fear that if they did not push metro it would not take off and go mainstream and wind up like WMC soon down the road.

so they "bet the farm" on it.

problem is that for a can't even begin to count how many users  the new metro start screen will be a deal breaker as it stands now with forcing it on users.

IMHO they should have just done two versions of windows and let folks pick the one they want.

if metro and the tablet are as great as they think they are the market would show this with the sales numbers....   that's a really good "stat" to go by.

there are problems with the two versions idea yes, but I see problems with the "all in one" method also.

I disagree with your conclusion and I think your conclusion contradicts the first portion of your comment.

I look at the Office Ribbon.  I think (as does Microsoft) that the ribbon UI is hands-down superior to the old Office UI,  But if Microsoft had given folks the option of turning off the ribbon so they could use the old UI instead (an option that many folks demanded before Office2k7 RTMed), then lots of folks would've chosen to stay with the old Office UI, not because it's better than the new ribbon UI, but out of force of habit or fear of change.  "Letting the market decide" by allowing an option to turn off the ribbon would've been stupid, because the inferior UI might've won out based on habit and/or fear.  So Office would be stuck with the old UI forevermore.

 It would've been very sad for Microsoft to spend lots of time and money on developing the Office Ribbon, then get scared and offer users the ability to use the old menu-based UI, and see everyone pick the old UI out of habit or fear, so that the clearly better ribbon UI fades into oblivion, never being given a true chance to gain traction.

1 day ago, evildictaitor wrote

I think the problem (once again) is that Microsoft made the mistake of telling people what it was doing, rather than just releasing it and getting a pile of celebrities and adverts to say "wow - now my desktop is swooshy! Why have an iPad 3 when you can have a Windows 8".

/snip

I kind of agree, but then again, there are folks complaining that Microsoft is being too secretive wrt Windows 8.  Anyway, Microsoft wants Metro apps to be ready when Windows 8 is released, so they have to release something before the actual release.  They could release it just to devs, I guess, but it would leak, so what would be the point?  Second, Microsoft does want feedback and they've made alterations based on user feedback (feedback that isn't of the , "What you're doing is totally wrong" variety).  And they need the feedback to get bug reports.  Unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn't control the hardware; they need to run the OS on many, many hardware configurations, of which they control none.  Apple needs their OS to run on 6 or so hardware configurations, all of which they control.

17 hours ago, AndyC wrote

I don't think it has a PR problem. Outside of the very IT-focused environments the press coverage I've seen has been exceptionally positive and particularly of the Metro UI. I think occasionally IT folks get a little over caught up in the echo chamber we've created and how it over amplifies opinions that are particularly extreme in one way or the other.

Andy I mean no disrespect but I can't find much coverage that is exceptionally positive and particularly of the Metro UI. What do find are a lot of neutral reviews of Windows 8 that raise a lot of questions. I'm a news junky and read and watch more than my fair share of news in and out of the technical realm. In fact my favorite magazine to read in the WC is Oprah's "O" magazine (really helps you understand the female being better). I'm not saying I qualify as scientific evidence to the contrary of your point but am scratching my head here wondering how you came upon yours.

The only enthusiastic reports I've read were from device manufacturers looking forward to building Apollo (W8) based devices. While that's some good news it doesn't equate to WP's (or W8) success in the marketplace.