p

I've had a Windows slate for 5 years, now it has Windows 7 on it. Any NEW "Windows Tablet" news is just marketing fluff to me.

32 seconds ago, Harlequin wrote

*yawn*

I've had a Windows slate for 5 years, now it has Windows 7 on it. Any NEW "Windows Tablet" news is just marketing fluff to me.

Your user-case is in the minority though, it isn't appealing to the rest of us.

Since getting my iPad, I haven't gone a day without fondling it some more. Styluses just don't work, and the Windows GUI (and by extension, legacy Windows programs) also just don't work for this form-factor.

The "styluses just don't work" comment is flatly wrong. The stylus is precisely what you want for specific scenarios. I'll agree that simple touch interfaces cover much more territory and is preferred most of the time, but to ignore the stylus and handwriting recognition I think is just as short sighted. Personally, I'm hoping the new tablets are designed for touch, but continue to support the stylus and handwriting recognition.

3 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

@W3bbo: The "fondling" comment is a little creepy. I know what you meant, but you could have chosen your words better .

The "styluses just don't work" comment is flatly wrong. The stylus is precisely what you want for specific scenarios. I'll agree that simple touch interfaces cover much more territory and is preferred most of the time, but to ignore the stylus and handwriting recognition I think is just as short sighted. Personally, I'm hoping the new tablets are designed for touch, but continue to support the stylus and handwriting recognition.

But I really do mean it. I used to use a Microsoft Tablet PC too (Tecra M4, 2006 to 2010) and I found it too fiddly, too inaccurate (especially for handwriting recognition), and too prone to getting lost.

With my iPad, I can type on the fingerboard much faster than I could do handwriting recognition (and with fewer errors), I can do doodles to a fair degree of precision with my fingers, and the widgets are purpose-designed for the "2-foot experience". Try using a 16px-wide Windows scrollbar with a stylus. Handwriting recognition only works for a small subset of society who have legible handwriting (I can't say my regular TPC use improved my handwriting at all), for the rest of us it's just a waste of time (and as I said, the keyboard is faster and more accurate).

Styluses are good for professional illustration, but you don't do that on an A5-sized pane of glass.

I do have to agree with wkempf on the need for a stylus. You just can't draw fine detail in documents (i.e. OneNote) without it. It'll be interesting to see where the HTC Flyer goes with it's note taking abilities.

So now that we have all of the Star Trekie gizmoes what I want to know is how long do we have to wait for the return of the mini-skirt...

i Have Acer Iconia Tab (AMD C50)  I LOVE IT

54 minutes ago, wkempf wrote

@W3bbo: The "fondling" comment is a little creepy. I know what you meant, but you could have chosen your words better .

The "styluses just don't work" comment is flatly wrong. The stylus is precisely what you want for specific scenarios. I'll agree that simple touch interfaces cover much more territory and is preferred most of the time, but to ignore the stylus and handwriting recognition I think is just as short sighted. Personally, I'm hoping the new tablets are designed for touch, but continue to support the stylus and handwriting recognition.

Whole-heartedly agree.

The most annoying aspect of the iPad is the lack of stylus support for handwritten notes, drawings and annotations (I'd like to be able to hand-annotate web page snapshots with a Stylus and have these snapshots cloud replicated; IE?.)

Added bonus if the stylus could be pressure-, tilt- and rotation-sensitive.

Microsoft is consistently in denial when it comes to new technologies.

circa 2000 - "Google is just a house of cards" (we don't need a pagerank algorithm)

circa 2006 - "smart phones are too expensive and the world will need years to catch up"

circa 2008 - "netbooks are just too cheesy, no one will buy that"

circa 2010 - "tablets should cost > $1000 and run an overwhelmingly burdening OS, why bother having them tethered to CDMA and GSM"

Microsoft always has the millionaire's solution. The problem is that their computer device buying market are not millionaires.

Their overwhelmingly un-cost effective solutions ultimately fail 100% of the time in the marketplace, then they simply copy whatever worked which is almost always a lighter more cost effective solution to the same exact problem.

Instead of being forced to create cost effective solutions to problems, after 2-3 years of being beaten over the head with them, they should START OUT with cost effective products and think of getting AHEAD of competitors.

It's like the executives at MSFT think it's a business deal and they can start out with a high offer and negotiate it down in the marketplace. People don't play that sh1t anymore. They need to get in their time capsule and jet out of 1985 and into 2011.

- oh wait, I forgot, MS R&D can project video directly into people's retinas like the Borg. I can't wait until hordes of people develop vision problems from that. That will be the end of Microsoft.

27 minutes ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@Dovella:

circa 2006 - "smart phones are too expensive and the world will need years to catch up"

That statement is unequivocally true today as it was 5 years ago, and it will be so 10 years thence. There are over a billion mobile phones in use right now, and a majority of them are not smart phones.

circa 2008 - "netbooks are just too cheesy, no one will buy that"

They ARE cheesy, but some people do buy cheesy. The iPad is proof of that.

1 hour ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

Microsoft is consistently in denial when it comes to new technologies.

circa 2000 - "Google is just a house of cards" (we don't need a pagerank algorithm)

Over the past 12 months, Google has been giving less and less relevant results and

circa 2010 - "tablets should cost > $1000 and run an overwhelmingly burdening OS, why bother having them tethered to CDMS and GSM"

Between AAPL and MSFT, only AAPL sets the price and tetheredness of the hardware so...um...yeah.

Microsoft always has the millionaire's solution. The problem is that their computer device buying market are not millionaires.

You sound poor.

Their overwhelmingly un-cost effective solutions ultimately fail 100% of the time in the marketplace, then they simply copy whatever worked which is almost always a lighter more cost effective solution to the same exact problem.

Instead of being forced to create cost effective solutions to problems, after 2-3 years of being beaten over the head with them, they should START OUT with cost effective products and think of getting AHEAD of competitors.

It's like the executives at MSFT think it's a business deal and they can start out with a high offer and negotiate it down in the marketplace. People don't play that sh1t anymore. They need to get in their time capsule and jet out of 1985 and into 2011.

MSFT is a large corporation and large corps always lag their smaller competitors.  If you'd brush the crumbs out of your neck-beard and get a job, you'd find that out.

- oh wait, I forgot, MS R&D can project video directly into people's retinas like the Borg. I can't wait until hordes of people develop vision problems from that. That will be the end of Microsoft.

Between AAPL and MSFT, only AAPL sets the price and tetheredness of the hardware so...um...yeah.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=apad

These "poor" people can buy an Android driven tablet computer right now for under a hundred bucks with free shipping anywhere in the world.

These worldwide consumers will believe that Android is the norm and when they become richer, they will see a foreign operating system such as Microsoft's as a computing abomination and so will their kids and their kids' kids.

20 seconds ago, beerinbelgi​um wrote

@ScanIAm:

"Between AAPL and MSFT, only AAPL sets the price and tetheredness of the hardware so...um...yeah."

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=apad

These "poor" people can buy an Android driven tablet computer right now for under a hundred bucks with free shipping anywhere in the world.

At 7", I'm not even slightly aroused.

A few recent threads made some hay about IBM and/or AAPL obtaining a larger market capitalization.  I don't subscribe to the idea that it really matters, but the one thing that it seems to point to is that businesses are spending less at MSFT than consumers are spending at AAPL.  AAPL is mostly a consumer electronics company, MSFT is mostly a business apps company, and IBM is mostly a .... well, I have no idea what IBM does any more, but it doesn't seem to compete directly with AAPL and MSFT.

6 hours ago, Bas wrote

I'm just wondering who the sheriff is.

Reggie Hammond

They write a lot of software in the Java realm. I don't know if you've heard of the WebSphere product line?

http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_projects.nsf/pages/metronome.index.html

Java RTOS-like runtime. That's what IBM research, AKA Domino, the division behind deep blue, and the chess champion crap does. They also work on the Linux kernel, Eclipse and other mundane tasks to advance open source, now that AIX has been pretty much phased out.

Here's a good example of what IBM does as far as consultancy:

http://www.amerisourcebergen.com/investor/phoenix.zhtml?c=61181&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=930000

In the pilot, AmerisourceBergen will use IBM's RFID middleware and embedded software on readers to read RFID tags currently used by certain pharmaceutical manufacturers as those products enter the distribution center. The unique product ID from each RFID tag will be electronically stored in IBM's EPCIS, which will be the platform for secure electronic communications back to the product's manufacturer. This secure information exchange will allow AmerisourceBergen and its trading partners to work collaboratively to share transaction information and further secure the supply channel.

A big company with a limited IT department wants a solution. Not software to create a solution, but a solution period.

They could care less if they could get the solution cheaper somewhere else! (most important IBM customer factor).

They get IBM to do it. IBM bills $3-500 per account services hour, $300+ per developer hour for US managers directing people working at 20k a year in India.

It costs at least a half million just to get a folder open for your company at IBM.

That's IBM in the private sector.

The government sector is trickier.

In World War II, they made a significant amount of money selling punch card machines to the government of Germ......

OK, lets not go there.

http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2011/lr21889.htm

In modern days IBM secures government contracts by buying a government official a nice boat or a sports car he or she could never afford on a public salary. They are smart about it and keep it on the down low.

Every once in a great while they get caught and they can't keep it quiet.

Voila!

Now you know what IBM does.

 *  *  * the more you know.

Hopfully this sheriff is my type.

Taiwan ODMs not feeling the love from Microsoft on Windows 8 development http://dlvr.it/Th78Y 

No crapware for Windows 8........................

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Microsoft's Win chief Sinofsky is due on stage at #d9 to talk/not talk about Win 8 around 3:15 PT on Wed,

Herbie

GO SINOFSKY GO GO GO GO GO !!!

9 minutes ago, Dovella wrote

The Messiahisnear , Messiah isnear , Messiah isnear , Messiah isnear,Messiah isnear!!

 

GO SINOFSKY GO GO GO GO GO !!!

I know we ban people for being abusive, but can we also ban people for having verifiably incorrect brain chemistry?

20 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

I know we ban people for being abusive, but can we also ban people for having verifiably incorrect brain chemistry?

That would exclude at least half of us.

Herbie

(Computex yesterday)

Windows 8 is flagged up for discussion tonight.

-

5 hours ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

I know we ban people for being abusive, but can we also ban people for having verifiably incorrect brain chemistry?

Got to admire the enthusiasm, but I fear he may be over-hyping it all... unless he has some inside knowledge that has eluded the rest of us.

Maybe we suggest he goes and posts on some Slashdot articles. They'd love him over there

28 minutes ago, Michael Butler wrote

unless he has some inside knowledge that has eluded the rest of us.

Make up enough stories and surely at least one of them will come true.

7 hours ago, Dr Herbie wrote

@felix9: I think they're taking it easy after MIX and TechEd -- I believe Charles in is Hawaii, if his Facebook photos are anything to go by

Herbie

 

Indeed. I just got back late last night... I have some great videos from ICSE 2011 (International Conference of Software Engineering) where the great Wolfram Schulte plays the role of lead interrogator. He did a wonderful job! Also, I got a chance to interview Mohsen Agsen again (he runs the Hawaii R&D "center", which pumps out great VS features for native developers and managed developers - some you are using today, some we didn't talk about because they won't show up until tomorrow). Most of the mohsen interview is about Visual C++ today and tomorrow...

Sorry I've been so quiet lately, but I hope you'll see it's worth the wait

Cheers,
C

20 minutes ago, Dovella wrote

http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-20067814-250.html?altcast_code=b9dbc9e3c8

Squee!!

6 hours ago, Dovella wrote

http://allthingsd.com/category/d9/   3:15 PT

  

At least there's some hope for WPF & Silverlight. Re: HTML5 and Javascript I guess Microsoft didn't learn from the wild success that desktop gadgets are today...

Windows 8 essentially supports two kinds of applications. One is the classic
Windows application, which runs in a desktop very similar to the Windows 7
desktop.

The other type of application, which has to be written in HTML5 and
Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen.
Internet Explorer 10, which is part of Windows 8, has already been configured to
run in this mode, as have several widget-like apps for checking stock prices and
weather.

14 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

At least there's some hope for WPF & Silverlight. Re: HTML5 and Javascript I guess Microsoft didn't learn from the wild success that desktop gadgets are today...

Windows 8 essentially supports two kinds of applications. One is the classic
Windows application, which runs in a desktop very similar to the Windows 7
desktop.

The other type of application, which has to be written in HTML5 and
Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen.
Internet Explorer 10, which is part of Windows 8, has already been configured to
run in this mode, as have several widget-like apps for checking stock prices and
weather.

Gadgets serve little purpose when you have a multi-windowed and/or multi-tabbed environment like on a desktop operating system. When you go to a more smartphone-like interface in which you don't have multiple windows and tabs waste too much screen real estate, gadgets may prove more useful.

I wonder, are WPF and Silverlight (and maybe even Win32) soon to be dead ends for new desktop app development? Are we expected to write future LOB or productivity apps with this new HTML5/JS framework? Will WPF/Win32 apps that look like the new "immersive" apps be relegated to a desktop ghetto or will they be able to integrate with the experience? Or, if as I suspect, many people want to disable/ignore the immersive experience in favor of the traditional desktop (on non-touch desktop PCs), will we still be able to run any of these immersive apps in multiple overlapping windows along side our old-school apps?

-Josh

1 hour ago, DCMonkey wrote

*snip*

 

Squee!!

I saw the video where the explorer desktop appears to move to the side as one of these newfangled applications expands.

So does this mean that the window manager in Windows is actually capable of those cool "nothing is as it seems" transition effects that we see with OS X? And if so, how come Microsoft never actually used it until this point?

Anyway, for the most part I like what I see, but without any further technical details I reserve my right to be skeptical.

It's been capable of that stuff since Vista when they started compositing everything on 3D surfaces, and put out Flip3D and all that.

Just watched the video. It looks great.

Time to roll out the dumpster and start throwing out all of my WPF work... Thanks Microsoft. Looks like Java may be my future.

19 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

@CreamFilling512:

Just watched the video. It looks great.

How does any of this invalidate WPF applications? Remember that as these new style applications are HTML it means they could host WPF instances.

So MS have put a marker down clearly promoting the "retro tools" (Javascrpt/HTML5 etc) for Windows 8 app development - with WPF/Silverlight now being firmly positioned as second class citizens?  Interesting (but from a personal standpoint dissapointing, having spent the last 2 years in the land of Silverlight).

Ultimately I guess it means that these new and existing 'retro app developers' will be able to port their apps to different platforms which will no doubt make their lives easier.

1 hour ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

How does any of this invalidate WPF applications? Remember that as these new style applications are HTML it means they could host WPF instances.

Well for one of my customers the jump from VB6 to state-of-the-art WPF (you've suffered long enough on an unsupported platform my dear customer) that they're hundreds of thousands of dollars into and still isn't finished is now last year's tech. Sure it will do the job and run on Windows 8 but they're going to feel a little cheated spending all of that money on WPF with everything shifting to HTML5 and Javascript. And you know that "legacy" apps will never feel as integrated as native Winodws 8 apps in the new shell. Let's not forget that you can still run VB6 apps on Windows 7 today and they look er...great!

Also I feel bad for all of the WP7 owners out there now knowing what they have in their hands was just another Kin or Zune. Thank you for joining yet another Microsoft experiment.

Putting Windows 8 on the phone? Didn't they try that once already and ended up with WinCE because it wasn't performant?

How about them devs that wrote all of those Silverlight apps for WP7? Nice Microsoft...real nice...

It's hard to believe I was ever a Microsoft zealot. What a waste.

Ever since using Windows Live Photo Gallery (and that Photo Gallery thing that came with Vista before it), I get annoyed when I have to use an open file dialog or something in some application where I need to open a photo that's on my system somewhere. I have to remember where it is, what the file is called, etc. You can search, but it's not ideal.

I always wished there was a way to just replace the Open File dialog in, say, Paint.NET, with WLPG, so that I could just use the WLPG UI to find the image file I wish to open. And now it looks like that is actually becoming a feature. Can't wait to see what happens there.

They need to come up with a good story for that HTML5/Javascript nonsense, though, because that sounds really damned annoying.

Good thing I've bought iPad, because when Windows 8 comes out I'll still have the most advanced piece of tech there is. They are building Vista 2 and this time they won't even be able to fix it with Windows 7 2.. Windows is sinking fast, I hope they would just kick Ballmer and install someone with more than one braincell.. bah.. such a disappointment..  

And HTML5/JS for core apps?  WTF? It's not even standardised yet!

Herbie

22 minutes ago, Dr Herbie wrote

Looks like: "Windows 8, now with more features that you'll never use!"

And HTML5/JS for core apps?  WTF? It's not even standardised yet!

It isn't standardised yet, but most of the features you can use today are already stable and most likely not going to change. I think they should hurry up and agree on a syntax for CSS3 gradients, animations, and transitions because they're all different right now and I don't fancy using any vendor-specific CSS in 'application code' that might stick around for years after IE10, 11, and 12 have been around.

Also, £5 says Microsoft will reboot IE's version numbering by the time it hits 11 or 12.

this was a presentation for  consumer,not for developers. your kind of commentsa re acceptable only after September 13

5 hours ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

*snip*

Also I feel bad for all of the WP7 owners out there now knowing what they have in their hands was just another Kin or Zune. Thank you for joining yet another Microsoft experiment.

Putting Windows 8 on the phone? Didn't they try that once already and ended up with WinCE because it wasn't performant?

I don't really see it that way, it's more like back in the days when NT and 9x were ultimately to be merged. You might well target one or the other depending upon the specifics, but ultimately the end product would run either. The fact that Windows will essentially be using the basic full-screen, Live Tile approach that underpins the WP7 model suggests they're both heading in the same direction.

3 minutes ago, AndyC wrote

I don't really see it that way, it's more like back in the days when NT and 9x were ultimately to be merged. You might well target one or the other depending upon the specifics, but ultimately the end product would run either. The fact that Windows will essentially be using the basic full-screen, Live Tile approach that underpins the WP7 model suggests they're both heading in the same direction.

It's a shame really, I was hoping the CE kernel would be the future now that modern machines are fast enough to make up for the latencies introduced with microkernel architecture.

3 minutes ago, W3bbo wrote

*snip*

It's a shame really, I was hoping the CE kernel would be the future now that modern machines are fast enough to make up for the latencies introduced with microkernel architecture.

When everything is HTML+Javascript it could well be, although I'm not really sure there will be all that much of a difference in reality.

• Windows 8 will be able to run on a wide range of machines because it will have the same system requirements or lower.
• Support for AMD Llano processor.
• "Not multiple versions of Windows, just one version of Windows running on all of them."
• Qualcomm, NVIDIA and TI for ARM reference designs.
• Snapdragon with "always on, always connected." mode.
• NVIDIA's quad-core Kal-El support,
• Whether x86 or ARM, same app expereince.
• OEM Activation 3.0
• 1366 x 768 resolution for the best Windows 8 experience and 1024 x 600 for normal Windows experience.
• We have some recommendations on bezel sizes so you can easily hold the system and edge to edge glass screen.
• Support for SSD's and wide range of sensors.
• http://microsoft-news.com/windows-8-hardware-specifications/

Any word on battery life of a tablet running a full multi-tasking OS?

I doubt HTML5/JS will be the only platform for Win8 apps; it's just that it's the new "AppX" package we've been hearing about. Lots of apps still go straight to the win32 API, so there's no reason to worry about the death of Silverlight/WPF.

MS can't afford to change. What they have been trying to do for the past decade is convince their customers that they don't want to change either.

For instance, try to create a high-performance multithreaded music application in HTML5/JS. Something like those music mixing apps. Or a complex 3D game. And how does it take advantage of things like, say, multiple monitors?

Hopefully this HTML5/JS junk is just one of the options, not the one and only option. If this is the only option, then I'm afraid I lost all interest...