monetizing your wifi router

There was an interesting op ed in the WSJ on thurs about how internet providers are working on enabling their customers wifi routers to be used to provide internet access to nearby cell phones and tablets. Where the hand held device switches from one wifi connection to another as it roams. And when wifi is not available, switch to a cell phone network. 

Maybe the person with the home wifi router would get a credit on their bill for allowing the public on their network.

Could there be an app that would run in your router that would safely accept outside traffic?  The hand held device user pays a monthly fee to a wifi capacity provider. That capacity provider then pays individuals with wifi networks to run the app on their router that opens their wifi router up to the paying customers. And payment is based on the amount of traffic that goes thru the router.

Here in the UK, I have just started using BT (British Telecom) as my ISP -- the router they supply is pre-configured to expose a 'BT OpenZone' WiFi hotspot for passing BT users. I don't get any credit, and if someone else uses it it cuts into my bandwirth (which already a measly 1.2Mb). I'm told I can switch it off, but I haven't taken the time to find the settings yet.

If I got credit for it I might consider leaving it on.

Herbie

I'd happily do this for free, but frankly I am too worried about the legal liability. Not worth the risk of having the police kick down your front door and try and arrest you for illegal material or even just getting sued for piracy.

They might realise their mistake when you tell them you operate an open wifi AP or a Tor node but frankly by then most of the damage has been done.

1 hour ago, SteveRichter wrote

There was an interesting op ed in the WSJ on thurs about how internet providers are working on enabling their customers wifi routers to be used to provide internet access to nearby cell phones and tablets. Where the hand held device switches from one wifi connection to another as it roams. And when wifi is not available, switch to a cell phone network. 

Maybe the person with the home wifi router would get a credit on their bill for allowing the public on their network.

Could there be an app that would run in your router that would safely accept outside traffic?  The hand held device user pays a monthly fee to a wifi capacity provider. That capacity provider then pays individuals with wifi networks to run the app on their router that opens their wifi router up to the paying customers. And payment is based on the amount of traffic that goes thru the router.

 

 

I would NEVER go for that!

for one thing how long before someone hacks how it works and can suck all the bandwith for free and you are left with  a bill and crappy internet ?

cable / isp / telco's do not use high end routers as they do not want to pay a lot for them and do not want a bunch of assets on the books etc....   so how are you going to make low cost hardware that has all of the features to make sure the home user does not get taken ?

no for the roaming devices they need to just work on better mobile network systems.

the telco's have a huge R&D and ROI to motiviate them to keep at it.

10 minutes ago, figuerres wrote

*snip*

 

I would NEVER go for that!

for one thing how long before someone hacks how it works and can suck all the bandwith for free and you are left with  a bill and crappy internet ?

cable / isp / telco's do not use high end routers as they do not want to pay a lot for them and do not want a bunch of assets on the books etc....   so how are you going to make low cost hardware that has all of the features to make sure the home user does not get taken ?

no for the roaming devices they need to just work on better mobile network systems.

the telco's have a huge R&D and ROI to motiviate them to keep at it.

replace the telco router with a better model and run DD-WRT customized for the purpose of providing metered service to WIFI users. There is a boarding house above my office and the people staying there are always looking for WiFi to tap into.  I would let people on the network if I knew I could keep them away from my traffic.

1 hour ago, ManipUni wrote

I'd happily do this for free, but frankly I am too worried about the legal liability. Not worth the risk of having the police kick down your front door and try and arrest you for illegal material or even just getting sued for piracy.

They might realise their mistake when you tell them you operate an open wifi AP or a Tor node but frankly by then most of the damage has been done.

OpenWifi != TOR. If you operate a TOR exit node and your door gets kicked in that really is just your fault for operating a TOR exit node. OpenWifi is much easier for the police to decide is OpenWifi before they kick your door in. TOR by design looks like normal traffic out of an exit node.

1 hour ago, figuerres wrote

for one thing how long before someone hacks how it works and can suck all the bandwith for free and you are left with  a bill and crappy internet ?

Well someone who can work out how to hack a new BT router could probably work out how to hack my old non-BT router and we're back to square one. If you use BT you're already stuck with a bill and crappy internet - BT offer you a terrible deal.

evildictait​or wrote:

OpenWifi != TOR. If you operate a TOR exit node and your door gets kicked in that really is just your fault for operating a TOR exit node. OpenWifi is much easier for the police to decide is OpenWifi before they kick your door in. TOR by design looks like normal traffic out of an exit node.

I think you give the police far too much credit. Last time I checked if they suspect kiddy pictures coming from an address, they don't set up a van next to it to make sure it isn't just incorrectly configured wifi. Much more likely is they will grab the local press, kick down your front door at 6 am, and drag you into a cell.

I don't really see how public wifi is any different to a TOR exit node. All of the traffic magically appears from behind your NAT. The ISP really cannot tell where it is actually coming from. They can use TTL to estimate, but that isn't exactly a science.

So is this public wifi AP operating on a different IP and/or behind the NAT? I wouldn't want anyone jumping onto my private network. But if it's a different IP and there were measures in place to prevent the kiddie porn issue brought up above, then sure, I'd probably take a credit on my bill.

The problem with getting a credit is then the user has to be charged, otherwise you might be the one using it to get credit for your own use of it.

Once you start charging a user for using it, they might as well have stayed on the regular cell network.

I would also point out that wifi uses a lot more power than the regular cell phone signal, and adding an extra layer of bureaucracy (keeping track of users and credits) increases the cost for all.

18 hours ago, ManipUni wrote

Last time I checked if they suspect kiddy pictures coming from an address, ... they will grab the local press, kick down your front door at 6 am, and drag you into a cell.

They really don't. Stop watching stupid movies and reading right-wing tabloids.

I don't really see how public wifi is any different to a TOR exit node. All of the traffic magically appears from behind your NAT. The ISP really cannot tell where it is actually coming from. They can use TTL to estimate, but that isn't exactly a science.

Public wifi is somebody's phone using your router as the entry point to the ISP, but the end point is still someone's phone. The traffic has the IP address of the phone and is authenticated to the ISP network as a phone (with customer numbers/passwords and so on if required by the ISP). In the ISP network it looks like two different devices behind your router, one of which is your machine and the other of which is an authenticated OpenWifi-enabled phone. doesn't look like traffic from your computer.

Unfortunately for people running TOR exit nodes the traffic coming out of the TOR exit node looks like traffic coming from your computer (because it is) - just because you're not the one asking it to download child pornography doesn't mean that your computer isn't doing it, and also doesn't mean that you're not criminally responsible for allowing it to do so. If you run a TOR exit node then it really is your fault when the cops break down your door and seize all of your computers.

12 hours ago, Proton2 wrote

The problem with getting a credit is then the user has to be charged, otherwise you might be the one using it to get credit for your own use of it.

Once you start charging a user for using it, they might as well have stayed on the regular cell network.

both parties contract with a broker. People with WiFi capacity sell that capacity to the broker. The broker supplies the customized dd-wrt software to run on the wifi router. Buyers, who want a wifi connection, pay the broker per month. The broker supplies the software that runs on the PC or handheld device that enables it to connect to the wifi of those who are selling their capacity.

3 hours ago, SteveRichter wrote

*snip*

both parties contract with a broker. People with WiFi capacity sell that capacity to the broker. The broker supplies the customized dd-wrt software to run on the wifi router. Buyers, who want a wifi connection, pay the broker per month. The broker supplies the software that runs on the PC or handheld device that enables it to connect to the wifi of those who are selling their capacity.

 

what you are posting here is in some ways like what the telcos do to account for and pay for phone calls between telcos.   it gets complicated and is a pain to manage.  plus you are getting a lot more end points in the mix to do the accounting on ... seems like it will not really work just in the management of it.

also if you have say 100 or 200 hot spots run by that many users i can see a lot of issues with quality and stability of the network.   and if each user supplies a router how many of them will:

a) not be setup right

b) not be able to really run the software 100%

also if a "third party" broker is buying and selling bandwith  will this violate the TOS of the person offering to be on this network ?   and if the TOS does not yet cover it i bet the cable  Operators and ISP's update the TOS to ban it.

I am not going to say they are right or wrong to do that ... just that from my background in Telco and internet I know that they setup netowrks based on "average use" and if that use goes up then some users get ticked off and complain about slow network speeds and if they see a bunch of "Server like traffic" they will block it or take other action.   most of them say in the fine print that you are buying use of the network as a "user" not to run any "Servers" such as web servers mail servers etc... and they generally sell plans for customers  who want to run servers at a higher price for that.

hey I am for an open internet with total freedom to use it. But I also know what the real world of ISP's and Telcos is like and how they see things.