Unified GUI...

According to this, Microsoft is going to unify GUI development pushing Avalon to both web and desktop applications.
Although WPF (Avalon) offers a lot of "eye candy", do you really think that is adequate for "serious" desktop applications?
Rich content web clients are really nice but I wonder how a Flash-like GUI framework could serve regular desktop applications like utilities, drafting and CAD, editors, dev tools etc.

Why don't you think it will be adequate?

JChung2006 wrote:

Why don't you think it will be adequate?

He's not saying its under-adequate, he's saying that it's overkill and potentially distracting.

Remember the Office '95 tagline: "Focus on your work, not your software"

As soon as 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, or even Visual Studio starts getting all "flashy" then we'll see a massive loss in global productivity, IMO.

JChung2006 wrote:

Why don't you think it will be adequate?

Honestly, I'm not sure. With GDI controls I used to concentrate my development afforts to program logic instead drawing "flashy" GUI.
However it's too early to criticize Avalon, we still don't know what controls will be available or the performance gain/loss.

W3bbo wrote:

...it's overkill and potentially distracting

Exactly !

Avalon looks nice, although I have little experience with it.

I think the whole toolkit is a little overkill for some userinterfaces. But I think you can make great and above all simple user interfaces that enable the user to work faster with your program.
It's all a matter of designing your program the right way.

WillemM wrote:

It's all a matter of designing your program the right way.

Say that to the VB devs from the mid 90's who couldn't resist making "OK" buttons bright green and adding modal popups evyerwhere

W3bbo wrote:

Say that to the VB devs from the mid 90's who couldn't resist making "OK" buttons bright green and adding modal popups evyerwhere

That's exactly what I'm afraid of. IMHO things like website-like applications with huge multicoloured buttons, inconsistent user interfaces and lack of a standard, will make desktop a ...design hell.
Currently, even without Avalon, there are so many "skinable" applications with silly user interfaces. I wonder how they will look like after adopting Avalon

I think we will see this for a while. Hopefully it will settle down over time as decent third-party controls become available.

I think in general it does give room for some innovation in UI design but yes, I also fear the return to pastel-hued windows with bright coloured buttons.

I think these days though a lot of developers have caught on to the idea that its good to make your applications look and work like the other applications that users may encounter. For example, a lot of applications seem to resemble Office apps these days. The main winforms app I work on these days takes its cues from Outlook, and the context-tasks of Explorer. I dont plan to change this just because I can use XAML now.

imo ui is a very important factor as well as your business logic.

you could have the best program in the world but if the ui is poorly designed it'll flop.

I wouldn't worry too much about professional applications as there will be interoperability between Avlalon and Windows Forms.  Just because it's written in Avalon doesn't mean it HAS to look unique, it could still use all the standard windows forms controls and regular windows.

However, I agree that there will be a slew of lower-budget, smaller applications that will make me want to barf when I see them.  At the same time, with a good, creative designer on the team there could also be a slew of lower-budget, smaller applications that will amaze me with their visuals and intuitive interfaces.

Windows/IE only. XP or later required I guess.

I've imitated the Office XP and 2003 looks in Avalon. I don't see why Avalon is a surefire way into Geocities applications.

Lol, geocities apps.
In my mind: Avalon is still a general presentation frameworks that allows multiple types of userinterfaces to be created. And according to different sources it includes all the things you need for any type of user interface.

Tom Servo wrote:

I've imitated the Office XP and 2003 looks in Avalon. I don't see why Avalon is a surefire way into Geocities applications.

Nah, I'd compare it more with Freewebs Applications.

If you follow the instructions almost-to-the-letter, like most newbs do, then you end up with a half-decent product.

However, as soon as you hit the Avalon equivalent of "HTML Mode Only" then things start to go downhill rapidly.

A bad designer is a bad designer, no matter what tools he has at his disposal.

Give a good designer better tools though...

JChung2006 wrote:

A bad designer is a bad designer, no matter what tools he has at his disposal.

Unfortunately the world is full of such "bad designers" and their products.
Every day, it becomes more difficult to find really good software with ergonomic and OS-compliant user interface.

sakisp wrote:

Unfortunately the world is full of such "bad designers" and their products.
Every day, it becomes more difficult to find really good software with ergonomic and OS-compliant user interface.

Microsoft needs to re-hype the "Designed for Windows" logo certification.

I remember back in the day when getting a "Designed for Windows 95" sticker on your software's box was commonplace. Now, not even Photoshop complies with it.

I agree with sakisp, lets reintroduce the designed for ... logo. The least they can do is introduce it for windows vista. It would be great if we can restore the good image of software.