WPF/E or Xbap or XAML or huh? I feel Java pulling me back, help

I have been writing code for a company intranet for about 7 years now.  Our 'intranet' is actually considered a reporting system.  The business changes so fast that reporting tools are created and discarded about every 3 years. 
  To make the management of this over 400+ desktops slightly on the 'keep me sane' scale, 7 years ago we moved all the reports to web pages (with server side scripts and Java)
   The golden rule is that NOTHING needs to be installed on the desktops, the web-apps run from the browser.

   The XAML, or WPF/E or AVALON, or XBAP  or what ever it is sounds like a great leap forward.  uh.. but I can't figure out what it is.
I bought 2 books on XAML and WPF.  I have been reading blogs and scouring the web for weeks.  I think I get it now.  But I seem to be missing something. 

   Where is the Code?

I have several nice Java (Not Java script) applets that I would dearly love to translate so I can manage them in Studio5 with all my other code.  But I can't seem to find the part of this new revolution that makes it possible.

I could almost figure it out if someone could give me an analog to compare. 

  Everyone is familiar with the Java 'LAKE' effect where an image is turned over and a ripple effect is created with an applet.
Can that be done in any of this new technology?
if so, where in this alphabet soup do I begin looking.

I have betas, and patches installed, I have Ajax and tide and sparkle and Windex and... Sigh.

Please.  I was so excited at the rollout, believing I could finally get the whole company intranet on MS and finally get off Java applets. 

Tell me it can be done...

Thanks!

Michael

p.s.
Example of some Java I am trying to change to .. something else.

// Grab a pixel from an image.
 public int[] getRGB( BufferedImage image, int x, int y, int width, int height, int[] pixels ) {
  int type = image.getType();
  if ( type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_ARGB || type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_RGB )
   return (int [])image.getRaster().getDataElements( x, y, width, height, pixels );
  return image.getRGB( x, y, width, height, pixels, 0, width );
  }

//Change a pixel in an image.
 public void setRGB( BufferedImage image, int x, int y, int width, int height, int[] pixels ) {
  int type = image.getType();
  if ( type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_ARGB || type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_RGB )
   image.getRaster().setDataElements( x, y, width, height, pixels );
  else
   image.setRGB( x, y, width, height, pixels, 0, width );
  }

Theatronics wrote:



  Everyone is familiar with the Java 'LAKE' effect where an image is turned over and a ripple effect is created with an applet.
Can that be done in any of this new technology?
if so, where in this alphabet soup do I begin looking.

Wow at of all this post this is the bit that scares me the most. Whether you can do it or not I vote 100% that you should not even attempt it. What's next... a question of how you can replicate the <blink> tag in XAML ....

Thanks, that helps.   Feel better now? [C]

If my boss tells me to put dancing gophers in the Daily manufacturing report, I do it.

Fortunately, I was only using the lake effect as the example of doing something, non-linear, with an image.

How about a different example.

I want to take the text   (SecUR3)  and twist and bend it. Then display it as a graphic.  Then ask the end user to identify the characters in order to prevent OCR systems from Logging into secure areas.  I can come up with lots of examples but it comes down to being able to distort the image at a much lower level than I have seen so far. 
 

BTW. This is not the actual app I am working on,  I can’t discuss it but much but it involves cameras, color separation, and lens distortion.

Thanks

-Michael

    The biggest problem with WPF/E is which direction WPF/E should go, should it only support javascript, or should it support C# and VB.NET? If it only support javascript, that will disappoint many C# and VB.NET guys(including me and among many others). If it supports C# and VB.NET, the WPF/E runtime should get blowed up, exceeding the current 1MB boundary, then WPF/E is more like java applet, which will definitely defeats its usability and applicability:(

Sheva

Thanks everyone.
I really appreciate what has been done, but the demos are just too ... Well... Out on the bleeding edge.  I don't need a 'Hello World' but something useful might be nice.  All I see are enhancements to simple tasks, No real added value.

If I threw a web-scape up on our office net with 3d floating icons and all the other bells and whistles, I would not get a lot of Ohhs and Ahhhs from the senior leadership.

While a whiz-bang look is great, I think there are a lot of utility programmers out there just looking for a way to make it work better. Having a one stop solution in Visual Studio is one way to get there.

Sure I may not know every detail of 'real' web design, but I know my business and our manufacturing processes very well.  I don't care how wrong my methods are, my business logic is all that anyone has ever paid any attention to. 

I am reading about How JavaScript is being used with XAML now.  I am waiting for that epiphanic moment, not there yet.

When I get there, I will share.  I can't be the only one trying to shoehorn this new idea back into the old framework until I get used to it.  (Heck , it took me a year to start using string builders as opposed to old school strings in VB)

Thanks again
-Michael

Just wanted to clear up one point. WPF/E is currently in CTP form. You can access the Feb 07 CTP here:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c744cbb8-d4d9-4bf9-ad5c-eef36e064911&displaylang=en

I have seen some strong signals that it will be released at Mix. I would watch visitmix.com for release of content early april. If it is anything like last year most session will be available in recorded from live show format. Which sold me on going this year:)

XBAP (XAML Browser Applications) is a sandboxed (not in full trust) version of WPF. Here is a great link for learning about XBAP:
http://wpf.netfx3.com/files/folders/labs/entry1934.aspx

Theatronics wrote:



p.s.
Example of some Java I am trying to change to .. something else.

// Grab a pixel from an image.
 public int[] getRGB( BufferedImage image, int x, int y, int width, int height, int[] pixels ) {
  int type = image.getType();
  if ( type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_ARGB || type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_RGB )
   return (int [])image.getRaster().getDataElements( x, y, width, height, pixels );
  return image.getRGB( x, y, width, height, pixels, 0, width );
  }

Theatronics wrote:


//Change a pixel in an image.
 public void setRGB( BufferedImage image, int x, int y, int width, int height, int[] pixels ) {
  int type = image.getType();
  if ( type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_ARGB || type == BufferedImage.TYPE_INT_RGB )
   image.getRaster().setDataElements( x, y, width, height, pixels );
  else
   image.setRGB( x, y, width, height, pixels, 0, width );
  }

Hello everyone, again...
Well it's been a while and I have been riding the Silverlight rollercoaster for a few months now and I must say, it has been more frustrating than exciting.

•          When will W2K have support. Even if it is not 100% compatible with Win2K, At least let the non-video parts install and run. The other half of my office can't view the new website correctly.

•          When can I expect VS2008, Silverlight, and Expression Studio be truly integrated?  Will there ever be a ‘seamless’ path between them? I thought both development tools were going to play nice.  Seems like there is still a little sibling rivalry.

According to Wikipedia, Microsoft is planning Silverlight support for Windows 2000 in Silverlight 2.0. You may want to ask one of the Silverlight evangelists (like Tim Sneath or C9 alum Adam Kinney) for an update on this.

Expression Blend 2 is a work in progress but includes Visual Studio 2008 support in its feature list. Check out the December preview.

Thanks JChung2006,
   I have Ex-Web(bought) and Ex-Blend(dl-Preview) I also Have VisualStudio 2005 with the Silverlight plug-ins and VS-2008 (MSDN release as of 2 days ago)

My main complaint is that I can't find a way to blend ASP.Net Web Applications and Silverlight.    Unless I hand code the whole thing and then what good is Blend?  

I can create a silverlight object and then wrap it in a control and then plug that into my sites but thats not the same... 

I'll see if Tim or Adam have any 'sparkle' of hope for me..

Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

(At the last MS event I walked away with dreams of importing all my VS2005 web app solutions into exBlend and exWeb and then adding shooting stars and amazing 3D graphs. 

My learning curve felt more like a cliff.   But I am not giving up...
even if I have to fake my silverlight pages with Java and Flash so My 2000 users can see them.. 

(someone save me  ?   )

-Mike

blend is where you design your silverlight application appearances and effects. it creates xaml automatically. and with xaml defined developer can work their code seamlessly. blend and visual studio is complementing each other. so, you can have all your designer to use blend and never worried a bit about the codes running behind, and you can have your developers doing the coding stuffs and never worried on how the interface will be. blending asp.net and silverlight? i thought you need only to embed silverlight to the page much like flash.

It appears to me that you have not made any firm decisions about

a) The technology you are to use to resolve a problem
b) The hardware requirements to sustain or effect that technology

To be more specific;

The biggest pain with web applications is browser compatability. Each time a new browser is released, you need to test / effect changes and workarounds. It's common knowledge that maintainability is easier because everyone connects to one place, i.e. the server. All updates can be made on the server and the client browsers reflect this.

The compromise is performance, something smart clients have in bucketloads.

Since you're maintaining an application for multiple OS's, the best thing would be to test Silverlight (watch the channel 9 videos) on those windows 2000 machines. You'll find that CPU usage rockets and in truth it's not really feasible, unless substansive performance issues are met by MS.

A WPF application can be run in a browser, this is attractive for your scenario, but there are a couple of snags. For every non Vista machine that connects to the XBAP, you get a rather long Loading...

try going here on an XP or 2000 machine  http://www.00001001.ch/download/HOL/WPF_XBAP/OutlookWPF/OutlookUI%20Browser.xbap

Not the greatest of user experiences, and I've not tested this in IE6 (not sure if IE 7 works on 2000). Again these are the prime considerations you have to take into account.

The long and the short of it is, if you have old hardware to consider in the equation, then the older more combersome technologies will have to suffice. If you have new, performant hardware, then WPF/E is THE option.

vesuvius wrote:



The compromise is performance, something smart clients have in bucketloads.

Since you're maintaining an application for multiple OS's, the best thing would be to test Silverlight (watch the channel 9 videos) on those windows 2000 machines. You'll find that CPU usage rockets and in truth it's not really feasible, unless substansive performance issues are met by MS.

A WPF application can be run in a browser, this is attractive for your scenario, but there are a couple of snags. For every non Vista machine that connects to the XBAP, you get a rather long Loading...

try going here on an XP or 2000 machine  http://www.00001001.ch/download/HOL/WPF_XBAP/OutlookWPF/OutlookUI%20Browser.xbap

Not the greatest of user experiences, and I've not tested this in IE6 (not sure if IE 7 works on 2000). Again these are the prime considerations you have to take into account.

punkouter wrote:



vesuvius wrote:  The compromise is performance, something smart clients have in bucketloads. Since you're maintaining an application for multiple OS's, the best thing would be to test Silverlight (watch the channel 9 videos) on those windows 2000 machines. You'll find that CPU usage rockets and in truth it's not really feasible, unless substansive performance issues are met by MS. A WPF application can be run in a browser, this is attractive for your scenario, but there are a couple of snags. For every non Vista machine that connects to the XBAP, you get a rather long Loading... try going here on an XP or 2000 machine  http://www.00001001.ch/download/HOL/WPF_XBAP/OutlookWPF/OutlookUI%20Browser.xbap Not the greatest of user experiences, and I've not tested this in IE6 (not sure if IE 7 works on 2000). Again these are the prime considerations you have to take into account.

never exceeds 40% load on my lame 2.4Ghz cpu with 1GB RAM running Windows XP Home. I even had MSDN Help, Visual Studio 2008 TS, and IE7 on channel 9 and other sites running in the background.

very true. eventhough I can say that windows 2000 is not supported anymore by Microsoft and it's not the recommended way. but considering the real world, windows 2000 with low memory PCs are still common out there.

btw, this is my office PC. my home PC is much, much, much powerful than this one (thus im calling it lame). but then again im a developer, so i have to have 'above average' PC to do my work eventhough this one is not exactly 'above average'. LOL

vesuvius wrote:

It appears to me that you try going here on an XP or 2000 machine  http://www.00001001.ch/download/HOL/WPF_XBAP/OutlookWPF/OutlookUI%20Browser.xbap

Writing a Silverlight plug-in that works for Linux and MAC, but then turning around and saying that one can NOT be written to work with 2000 is clearly a marketing issue.
Based on the JAN 08 Operating system survey by Market Share:
LINK http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10
Windows 2k users are only 2.7% of the total market, so they are not a significant number of Customers to target but Linux ranks even lower at 0.67%. So why support Linux and not 2000?
Has anyone tried to run Silverlight in Opera on a win2000 box?  I think I’ll look into that as a fix for the time being.
(Sometimes we can not control what hardware we must develop for, only do the best we can with what the customer provides.  I am looking for a way NOT to steer the customer away from Microsoft.)