What’s this? Learn C++ before C#... Why though?!

I’ve seen this said all over the place, but no one goes into detail explaining why. What are the advantages vs. disadvantages for learning C++ before C#?

Up until now I’ve became curious about how programming really works. What happens underneath it all? What happens when I compile it and run my program?

Is this what they mean by learn C++ first? Will it help me to understand what’s going on more clearly? BTW, I already know C#.

Thanks,
John

Native code compilers are less forgiving than managed environments. Instead of getting a nice exception, your process crashes, if you mismanage the heap you can corrupt everything. That's very cryptic and unforgiving. Once you've mastered the discipline of developing for C++ including the argueable benefits of multiple inheritence you'll be much more appreciative of C#.

rcardona wrote:

Native code compilers are less forgiving than managed environments. Instead of getting a nice exception, your process crashes, if you mismanage the heap you can corrupt everything. That's very cryptic and unforgiving. Once you've mastered the discipline of developing for C++ including the argueable benefits of multiple inheritence you'll be much more appreciative of C#.

But that's jumping in the deep-end. The learning curve is far too steep to learn the basics.

But you've got a point. Maybe someone should make the equivalent of BluJ but for C++.

basically, you won't respect the goodness of C# unless you've played with an old school language.

The older languages teach you about buffers (and overflows), pointers and memory allocation (and de-allocation). Basically, it was more on IL level instead of the meta level c# is acting now.

If you want, read this article from Joel Spolsky called "The Perils of JavaSchool". He talks about this similar issue...

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

I don't really agree with having an "obligation" to learn other languages in order to learn the language you want to learn as a rite of passage. When I started with QBASIC in 5th grade, it caught my interest because I could write a few lines of code that looked like regular sentences and the computer would do stuff. If someone had dropped a C programming book on my table and said "you need to learn this before you can use QBASIC" I probably would've just stopped programming. I learned programming languages in order from QBASIC to Javascript to Java to C# to PHP to C++ with a few others along the way and I'm fairly comfortable with all of them. Learning a scripting language or managed language first doesn't stop you from becoming an expert C++ programmer down the road.

TimP wrote:

I don't really agree with having an "obligation" to learn other languages in order to learn the language you want to learn as a rite of passage. When I started with QBASIC in 5th grade, it caught my interest because I could write a few lines of code that looked like regular sentences and the computer would do stuff. If someone had dropped a C programming book on my table and said "you need to learn this before you can use QBASIC" I probably would've just stopped programming. I learned programming languages in order from QBASIC to Javascript to Java to C# to PHP to C++ with a few others along the way and I'm fairly comfortable with all of them. Learning a scripting language or managed language first doesn't stop you from becoming an expert C++ programmer down the road.

++

I haven't used C++ since I started on C# in 2002, so I wouldn't worry about the 'need' for C++.


Herbie

If you want to learn how the computer and its software really work, then learning C++ is the natural next step.

Managed environments are intended to insulate you from the nitty gritty, and they do it very well.

If you learn and practice native programming, the insight you gain into how computers really work will benefit your career immeasurably from that point on.

It's not easy, but you won't regret it if you try.

I agree. To "appreciate" C# you must learn C++. And to "appreciate" C++, you must learn C. Oh, and may as well learn x86 assembly. And Motorola assembly will make you appreciate C.

I learned to program in assembly language by observing the code a Fortran compiler generated from my early attempts at programming.  Fortunately, the machine code was for a machine that was designed by engineers for engineers who code in assembly language.  So the effort wasn't wasted.  Programs written in C and C++ (not to mention Visual Basic) are U-G-L-Y.  There is no need to suffer through them to benefit from the beauty of C# and/or Java.  Of course, at some point, any programmer should gain a deep appreciation for what compilers and linkage editors do for them.

Minh wrote:

I agree. To "appreciate" C# you must learn C++. And to "appreciate" C++, you must learn C. Oh, and may as well learn x86 assembly. And Motorola assembly will make you appreciate C.

C !
The Classic!

Really if you want to learn how it works and how to build an OS then C is (IMHO) the way to go....

I recall Hacking Tiny C and Manx C on the Amiga and learning sooo much ....

also writing code on the Commodore 128 -- part compiled basic, part C and part 6502 assembly code and getting it to all work as one app.
stacks, pointers, Jump thru pointer and all kinds of low level hakery!

if you get good with C and the preproc macros you can do at least half or more of what C++ does...

get there and then you will see .net in a whole new light.

.net is amazingly great!

kampfer wrote:



I’ve seen this said all over the place, but no one goes into detail explaining why. What are the advantages vs. disadvantages for learning C++ before C#?

Up until now I’ve became curious about how programming really works. What happens underneath it all? What happens when I compile it and run my program?

Is this what they mean by learn C++ first? Will it help me to understand what’s going on more clearly? BTW, I already know C#.

Thanks,
John

You want to learn C/C++ so that you can understand what C# or VB.Net is doing for you under the covers. .Net languages aren't magic and anything they are doing you could do yourself in C (it would just take a lot more effort).

By understanding C/C++ you will have a much better understanding of what .Net is doing under the covers. This will make it much easier to debug (or better yet avoid) complex problems, especially problems related to memory allocation/deallocation and references.

I don't think you need to be an expert or even have written any production code in C/C++, but you should have a decent understanding of how it works.

I think it would be a good school project (college level anyway) to create an object-oriented architecture in C (v-tables and other basic structures/algorithms). Once you have completed this project and have a good understanding of it, you should never have to touch C/C++ again .

bbrewder wrote:



kampfer wrote:  I’ve seen this said all over the place, but no one goes into detail explaining why. What are the advantages vs. disadvantages for learning C++ before C#? Up until now I’ve became curious about how programming really works. What happens underneath it all? What happens when I compile it and run my program? Is this what they mean by learn C++ first? Will it help me to understand what’s going on more clearly? BTW, I already know C#. Thanks, John

You want to learn C/C++ so that you can understand what C# or VB.Net is doing for you under the covers. .Net languages aren't magic and anything they are doing you could do yourself in C (it would just take a lot more effort).

By understanding C/C++ you will have a much better understanding of what .Net is doing under the covers. This will make it much easier to debug (or better yet avoid) complex problems, especially problems related to memory allocation/deallocation and references.

I don't think you need to be an expert or even have written any production code in C/C++, but you should have a decent understanding of how it works.

I think it would be a good school project (college level anyway) to create an object-oriented architecture in C (v-tables and other basic structures/algorithms). Once you have completed this project and have a good understanding of it, you should never have to touch C/C++ again .

I resepectfully disagree. Explicit management of memory is exactly what .Net was designed to get away from, and to help programmers program their code closer to what they want it to do, rather than closer to how the machine ought to do it.

Although I would say that it is good practise to have a full understanding of the architecture of the system that you are programming on, and you'll be a better overall programmer because of it, if starting a task and not a career in programming, just stick with C# or VB.NET.

If you are going to go down the road of saying you must learn the "underneath" languages, then there is no reason why you should stop at C++; C++ does exception managing in a way that C doesn't, and which you won't fully understand until you learn C, and even C doesn't tell you everything about memory management that NASM assembler will. And why not learn how a processor and RAM is made up of NAND gates so you can see physically how the system goes, and how you make a NAND gate from plate silicon?

My best suggestion would be for you to learn a .NET language first, and then to learn C++ or the like later, because with .NET you implement an idea, with C++ you build a program, with C you build an error waiting to happen and with NASM assembler you build a headache. And believe me, with a decade of experience in C and C++, I've never looked back since C#.

Dr Herbie wrote:



TimP wrote: I don't really agree with having an "obligation" to learn other languages in order to learn the language you want to learn as a rite of passage. When I started with QBASIC in 5th grade, it caught my interest because I could write a few lines of code that looked like regular sentences and the computer would do stuff. If someone had dropped a C programming book on my table and said "you need to learn this before you can use QBASIC" I probably would've just stopped programming. I learned programming languages in order from QBASIC to Javascript to Java to C# to PHP to C++ with a few others along the way and I'm fairly comfortable with all of them. Learning a scripting language or managed language first doesn't stop you from becoming an expert C++ programmer down the road.

++

I haven't used C++ since I started on C# in 2002, so I wouldn't worry about the 'need' for C++.


Herbie

++

troposphere wrote:

If you want to learn how the computer and its software really work, then learning C++ is the natural next step.

Managed environments are intended to insulate you from the nitty gritty, and they do it very well.

If you learn and practice native programming, the insight you gain into how computers really work will benefit your career immeasurably from that point on.

It's not easy, but you won't regret it if you try.

I concur, with todays world of drop->drag wysiwyg wizerdy programming environments it's fundamental to any successful programmer to understand our roots.

kampfer wrote:



I’ve seen this said all over the place, but no one goes into detail explaining why. What are the advantages vs. disadvantages for learning C++ before C#?

Up until now I’ve became curious about how programming really works. What happens underneath it all? What happens when I compile it and run my program?

Is this what they mean by learn C++ first? Will it help me to understand what’s going on more clearly? BTW, I already know C#.

Thanks,
John

It really doesn't matter what language you learn first.  If I had to start with C++, I probably never would've become a programmer.  It all boils down to this: the more you know about something, the better you'll (likely) be at it.

C# (.NET, really) abstracts most of the "nuts and bolts" that deal with memory allocation, pointers, etc. away from the programmer.  C++ has WAY less abstraction, and assembly doesn't have any, really.  When you program using C++, you need to be more aware of how things are done.

Putting aside all the "in my day we coded uphill - both ways" and the "it sucked for me to do punch cards, so it should suck for you too": just keep learning.  You don't need to know how to program in C++ to learn when to use a StringBuilder, proper disposal patterns, heap vs. stack allocation, ideal buffer sizes, threading, etc.  If you want to, leaning C++ at any point will likely benefit you (depending on what you want to improve upon).

In order to appriciate VB.NET you should first go back and learn QBASIC