It is actually very obscure reference to Alan Partridge - if you didn't see it (the Alan Partridge show) you simply have to - after seeing it you will never look at world the same again.

As for if it should be K not N? Yep, you're right, but because I'm bloody foreigner I very often make mistakes and type nife instead of knife for example

And yes, I'm reasonable, but as I've said previously, sometimes diplomacy must be left for diplomats, diplomats must be locked, and real men must do the work, otherwise we ending up with all sorts of problems. After the work is done I have absolutely no problems with letting those diplomats out free again

Regards.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Have to admit, this is the first post of yours where I read it and actually agree with you.

Ok, we'll see what the future holds.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Hi Herb, won't be hiding anything, I think you are wearing too many hats mister, and you want to eat the cake and have it too.

I have lots of problems with the way you pretending to be and the way you really are, will point to just two of them at the moment:

a) your pre and post //build behavior - you knew exactly what's gonna happen yet to the very end you pretended that C++ is going to have its renaissance at MS. Lots of talk, zero action, or as some of us, (I notably), seen such "actions" as coming from the betrayal category. Anyway, after //build you radically have changed your opinion towards C++ and were trying to convince us that CX is not only better but the only viable option. You were also not interested in engaging (engaging, not just talking and not listening) with us, devs, one of your comment which stuck in my mind was something along the lines:

"Guys, this thread is too long, I'm not gonna read it"

but there was more and some of your replies where simply outrageous.

b) In your last post you've said: "You should check out the November 2012 CTP" 

In reply to that I have just one thing to say:

You should check out status of C++11 in clang and gcc, compare it to VS, and then we can talk. Because if you were a man of action, someone with your position at MS would make sure that VS would be up to date C++ wise. But it isn't. Do you understand now why I think that:

"he(Mr Sutter) talks all the time about C++, yet he does nothing or almost nothing (at least the effects suggest it) to put C++ into leading position - see the state of VS's C++ compiler.

Herb, I do understand that my words are harsh and are directed at you, and I also do understand that you may feel offended. But that's how I feel about your person at MS and the effects of it. You are supposed to be "The main C++ architect", yet, status of C++ compiler in VS is couple of years behind  freely available compilers. You do lots of talk, yet the effects (the real effects meaning that devs can actually use modern C++ on which you talk so much, are poor on VS) suggest that you don't do the walk.

I also do understand that I am not even a pawn in this game, so you really do not have to convince me nor prove to me anything, but as long as I can reason, I am going to state my opinion in the most direct way. This may seem bit too dramatic for you but someone once said:

"We could avoid first and second world war if we only didn't use diplomacy"

So my conclusion to this bit too lengthy post would be:

If I were you, and would still want my person to be seen as C++ guy I'd make sure that I do:

Less talk and more (visible/tangible) action - up to date C++ compiler.

P.S.

Herb would you do me a favor and tell me what your formal education is - it is impossible to find  any info about it anywhere.

Thank you

posted by KMNY_a_ha

You can LOL and all the rest. The point is that:

a) all your examples from last post prove my point - Herb does a lots of talk, but he doesn't do the walk.

b)"Herb was lead designer for C++ AMP" - just like he is Main C++ Architect at MS. And what? I'm more than sure that he doesn't write production code, he simply talks (and designs - with help of qualified engineers).

C'mon, start thinking.

P.S.

I'm not a C++ zealot.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

"It has been said that C++ isnt the most productive lang when it comes to programer productivity"

but it has been proved that C++ is as much productive as C# and Java and there are many scenarios where C++ is simply more productive due to its flexibility.

"Also your dumb claims about one language to rule them all is laughable and shows you know nothing about sw development"

Where did I say that C++ is the only and correct way to go?

"So Herb will use C# when it is appropriate, he will use C++ when it is appropriate."

With all due respect, you don't know when he will use one and when the other language, but this is not the point. The point is that he talks all the time about C++, yet he does nothing or almost nothing (at least the effects suggest it) to put C++ into leading position - see the state of VS's C++ compiler. And that's the whole gripe I have with Mr Sutter. Lots of talk, zero action or worse, lots of actions suggesting that Mr Sutter plays on the .NET side.

And to be clear - I have nothing against any language, nor people using any of those languages. The only problem I have with Mr Sutter is that he talks about C++ and nothing else, and as I've said previously some of the actions of his would suggest that he tries to play on both teams. This is simply not good. One should pick one team and stick with it. Otherwise one looks like he's sitting on the fence.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Very different picture is presented by TIOBE:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

posted by KMNY_a_ha

The point is that Mr. Sutter can only talk. Talk, talk, talk. Empty talk. And giving speeches  Oh, he loves this. He simply loves giving speeches. Mr Sutter - wake up call! Talking is easy and yet even on those pre-prepared speeches you are making silly mistakes. Because you simply don't understand FULLY what you are talking about. But that's the problem when you don't have proper education, isn't it?

Why don't you Mr Sutter try to convince your employers and make them realize that C++ is much better than .Net? But why would you do it. In one of your talks you said that you love C#. You also said that you are wearing many hats. Well, Mr Sutter, it is time to realize that you have to decide which hat you like best and chose it. Because wearing many hats, especially the one you are wearing makes you look like you are sitting on the fence.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Charles, if you do something useful at MS please let me (us) now.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

@Glen Thanks for the link.

Now to answer your queston:

I'd like to see mr sutter's qualifications because his "track record" as you called it, so far is just that he can talk a lot - but does very little actual real work. And from this link (given to me by PFYB) http://herbsutter.com/2011/10/25/garbage-collection-synopsis-and-c/ you'll see that he has actually very little idea what he is talking about. Concentrate on exchange between him and David Abrahams.

And why do I want to know what mr sutter's formal education is? Because I'm fed-up with careerists like him, who without proper education are put on absolutely unsuitable positions and are absulutely unprepared to do any real work - because they don't have right/correct education. That's why.

And as my feeling goes, mr sutter doesn't have formal education which would indicate that he is a suitable guy to be a C++ architect. But I'm happy to say that I was wrong only someone has to prove it to me. But he wan't. Becase he can't. Because he doesn't have anything to show except smart * responses and patronizing talk. That's what his track record is so far.

As for my language, first, have to correct you here, I've never called anyone cretin, you see Glen, you just repeating what Charles told you, without actually paying attention what I'm saying and why. Anyway, that's not important. The important thing is that I believe that in extreme situations extreme measures are needed. This is extreme situation. That's why I'm using the kind of language I'm using. I'm not going to say to someone when he lies to me that his truth is different to mine. No! He is a lair. In case of mr sutter when at his position, he did nothing to help C++, on the contrary it seems like everything is done to hurt C++, what in that situation mr sutter should be called? The guy who tried to kill C++? I'm ok with that too.

And I'm sorry to say Glen but if you cannot overcome the negative feeling and see truth in my words just because I'm using strong language, then just simply don't read my posts. It's easy I think. You see my nick and skip it.

But I tell you one thing with reference to that - I and II war could've been avoided if diplomacy hadn't been used.

And if I'll get blocked from this site it will just prove my point more than anything.

I'd like you also to clarify on that, becase well, it is not clear what you mean when you say:

"However, language is of no use if you can't control it to be understood too. You still need perspective, or you aren't talking clay, you are talking doggie chocolate!"

Regards

posted by KMNY_a_ha

"Remember, it's a programming language, not more."

No, to me it's not. To me, it is a way of life, it is the way you express yourself through your ideas, the way you realize yourself by creating. The way my FREEDOM is defined. Democratically. And by what body my freedom is guaranteed. ISO C++ std.

If to you all of those things are just a language and you can easily switch from one way to other and you accept that from now on someone will tell you what language you have to speak in order to be understood, then Glen, we are made from very different clay.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

"C++/CX and WRL are what will ship and they're excellent tools for the job at hand."

Charles by saying this you just contradicted yourself. At one point in time you've said that WRL approach is feasible but impractical, now you're saying that they're excellent tools. Well I suppose that's how the regime's machine works.

And when you're saying: 

" People are building apps with them today and the consensus is overwhelmingly positive. "

Would you mind and point us to the place where people are actually expressing their positive opinions on a subject? Somehow they're not here.

And could you also ask mr herb to tell us what university he finished, what titles he has, what is his qualification/education background. Looked on the web, couldn't find anywere. But surely he must have (not some) education in the field, he poses as an expert mustn't he?

So just to summarize:

1. WRL is not an excellent tool even thoug once you say it is and few days after you say it isn't and few days after that you say that it is. Get it!

2. Where are those people who think CX is a great tool for a job?

3. What is a FORMAL education of mr sutter.

Cheers

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Thank you.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

"We really want to hear from you, so please tweet feedback to @C9GoingNative (follow us!) and send your requests, ideas, complaints, praises, hate mail, and love letters to C9GoingNative [at] hotmail [dot] com. We will read and respond to all messages! That's how we roll, brothers and sisters. And if you're a Facebook user, please join our C9::GoingNative Facebook group."

I believe that if you encourage people to communicate with you no matter in what form nor style then you should be prepared that people will do so. So deal with it!

[Censored by Charles]

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Short story - there is absolutely no need for CX - C++ already provides everything and more in order to allow efficient interacting with WinRT - proved by Tomas.

@Jim, Jim when you were saying in one of your posts that before CX came to live and people where thinking about its desing, someone in the room said, why not to use CLI syntax, and everyone started laughing at him, wasn't that mr sutter who said that?

And last note: Charles, you're wrong again, C doesn't let you go lower than C++, they are allowing you to reach exactly the same level, they just provide different levels of abstraction.

When will they learn?

posted by KMNY_a_ha

C++ Rules And Rocks!

Forever!

@ me_myself_and_cpp: From: http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/2059755-move-forward-and-bring-back-vs-ui-written-in-nativ?page=3 "The only reason Raymond had several post instead of just one was that he intended to show his toy program evolving over time. Nor was the sequence of blog posts an example of just how well .NET performs. Raymond was *not* trying to outperform C# code put by Rico. Rico did try to outperform C++ code put by Raymond, without too much success. That's it."

When people will get it?

posted by KMNY_a_ha

And just to be clear: I do not agree with MS politics, behavior and plans for future (lack of C++11 expecially), but this doesn't change the fact that people will still use their product. For the same reason why they use Windows. And for the same reason why they use Office And talk to you few years from now you will see it for yourself.

And perhaps the best example for you will be yourself and your company. Are they leaving Visual Studio? If yes then you're right, if not I'm right.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Oh, and one more thing, could you please do not invite mr sutter anymore, as he proved on this thread that he is also incapable of reading long threads and understand what is asked in them. I think most people will agree with me that what mr sutter showed here was just pathetic and we just do not want to read/listen to what he has/wants to say anymore.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

Please give the VC team a break. They too, were misguided for 10 years as we - Microsoft -assumed .NET would be everything and everywhere and everyone would develop in C#. Can they have some time to catch up?

@Charles, you know I really, really would like to believe in that but first:

1. Actions speak louder than any voice - where is C++ at MS? What are the plans for C++ at MS? Do we as devs know anything about it? The only thing we know is that you (MS) don't care about C++ and C++ community (because of the actions MS took, not because what MS says) 

2. Would it be fair to say that now MS assumes everyone will develop in C++/CX? Because mr sutter says it's great, so surely it must be, mustn't? O my God...

3. Would it be fair to say that if you come to someone's country you behave according to this country rules, not the one from your homeland? C++ isn't your world/country yet you treat it as if it was invented/owned by you. How arrogant is that?

Enough is enough. Too many times MS threated C++ community like not even second class citizens. Arrogant, dismissive attitude was the way to go. Even few weeks ago, what was it? C++ renaissance? Why didn't you play straight? Why did you pretend, hiding behind names (C++). What does it says about your attitude towards C++ and C++ community? And as for Diegum expanation for lack of C++11 support in VS2012 - because we didn't know you (developers) want that. How arrogant, insulting is this? Why can't you (MS) get it that people are not sheeple?

Charles, on a personal note, I really have nothing against you. I know that we've had little "incident" in the past but it's a past. I think that you are ok guy. I also have a weak spot for a native americans since childhood (would you believe that my wife's sister is married to a Blackfoot and they live here in Ireland few years now?). But what I'm driving at is that (if you really care about C++) you are in a very unfortunate position that you work for a company which interest you obliged to protect and those interests are nowhere near yours and ours, and you just simply cannot say what the things really look like. We on the contrary can. From the perpective of C++ community MS (with mr sutter as a main C++ architect) betrayed this language and this community - once again. As simple as that. And as long as this won't be fixed no words, no amount of beer, no plastic beads  will bring happines and good relationship between our community and the company you work for.

Peace

As a sidenote w/r to VS - I personally stopped using it at home shortly after build conference, and judging by how things are going for this once great IDE won't be using it in the near future.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

3 hours ago, Charles wrote

*C++/CX has been deemed the most user-friendly approach to solving this problem. Feel free to prove us wrong.

C

@Charles didn't we prove you  wrong (to MS, mr sutter and you personally) by giving a number of differently approached counter examples written in pure ISO that would achieve exactly the same goal as C++/CX and actually would conform to ISO C++?

Are we having/had the same discussion here?

And as for mr sutter and his attitude:

 "hey, this thread has half the word count of exceptional c++! I'm not gonna read it!" - pathetic

You also are saying:

COM is a foreign object model to C++).

Yes, but in order to consume it you use C++ syntax and you have C++ semantics. This is NOT true for C++/Cx - and that's the whole point, I and others were trying to make but apparently this genius mr sutter couldn't neither grasp it nor explain why staying within ISO C++ would be not possible and he and his team had to come up with CX. WOW!

The only person here from MS who has to be given fair play star is Jim Springfield. I and others may disagree with him but at least he didn't try to pull wool over our eyes, on the contrary to mr sutter and Jim at least read this tread and listened to what we want/have to say.

As for over all mr sutter's appearance here - WOW!

posted by KMNY_a_ha

posted by KMNY_a_ha

But Glen, this will not bother MS. We are not their target customers - .NET crowd is. They will jump on CX. We (C++ guys) were just an extra - They (MS) speculated along this lines: "if it happens (that C++ guys will want to use it) that's fine, if not we (MS) can live without them quite happily."

They didn't care about us in the past and they will not in neither present nor future.

Why do you think this syntax is so .NET-ish? To accomodate C++ folks? Buhaha! That's so obvious - .NET crowd is what matters for MS not we.

C++ rules and rocks!

Forever!

posted by KMNY_a_ha

class X

{

REFCLASS;//this is a macro, other tool may be needed but other than that nothing changes

};

continue from the comment above:

if class needs to be WinRT aware it has to have as its first line REFCLASS macro. That's it. Compiler or another tool is aware of that and based on that generates necessary info/metadata. Syntax and everything stays exactly the same as ISO C++.

posted by KMNY_a_ha

a) Yes b) n/a c) Because we didn't see this approach as the best solution for our users. We've tried to cover many of the issues that pushed us to C++/CX and I can understand if you disagree with some of them.

I strongly believe that here is the crux - who are those users Jim mentions? Not C++ community surely? So who else is there? The answer is clear and obvious: The .NET crowd.

MS as a very respectable company cannot just abandoned its current "users"  and tell them to feck off and that the technology they were lured to for over decade simply goes to butcher's house, and those folks need to learn new technology or learn a new phrase "DO YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT?".

No, MS knows that this wouldn't be the right strategic decision. In view of the fact that .NET will/is going to be slaughtered in the near future, MS had to come up with something better/clever in order to:

a) keep a face

b) confirms to its "users" that those who stick with it can depend on MS and will not be abandoned by this company

c) keep an image of a respectable company

c) holds to its "users"

needed to ease the pain of switching between technologies.

There were few options - better ones (Jim in his answer, admits that there is a way to do this with C++) and worse ones. Why MS picked worse one? Every one knows that people who works at MS are world class pros and experts, so how is it possible that MS made a mistake in judging what's good for it's customers. Exactly - just because it's worse for you it doesn't mean that is worse for MS customers, do you see it now? MS picked what's right for its customers, not what's right for you. Now when the cards are reveiled everything starts making perfect sense.

Well, as they say in my old country if you don't know what it's all about it must be about money.  And if you think about this, MS knew who their customers/users are. There are .NET crowd. Not C++ folks.

There are much more .NET devs in the world than C++. To MS was obvious that it has to try to keep those people by its side. In order to do that, familiar syntax and workings needed to be put in place. Just to make the switch from .NET to WinRT as easy and gentle as possible. That's why there also wasn't any pressure on adding C++11 features. What for? Their users don't need them so why would they bother?

And what they (MS) could loose? Nothing really. .Net crowd will eventually switch to native WinRT - why wouldn't they? and those guys from C++ community who decide to use WinRT with the syntax from .NET world will be and extra addition to customers/users group of MS. Perfect plan. No chance for a loss.

posted by KMNY_a_ha