Comments

@Hi Charles, thanks for reply.

The question/s is/are (depends on how you read it, as a one question with branches or few separate questions said it in one breath):

Could that (the goal of C++/CX) be achieved without modifying syntax and semantics of C++,

if no, why? What is it in CX that couldn't be done using existing language futures + compiler's help + other (if necessary) tools help?

if yes, why did Microsoft do that?

I would really appreciate if you could ask mr sutter and if he would be so kind and reply to them, with  presenting examples and counter examples of code that clearly show that what you did with CX was the only and best way to go and it could not be done with C++.

Thank you.

P.S.

If you could wait couple of days till other people get the chance and ask their questions, and then if you could compile them into one post, post this compilation with numbered questions here on this thread and then forward it to mr sutter get his numbered replies and post them here would be really appreciated.

C++ Rules and Rocks!

@PFYB my suggestion to you, could you please list those questions, bold them out  and number them so there will be no wriggling out/avoiding/omitting excuse anymore as to which and what specific questions has been asked. Then in reply mr herb could also number his answers appropriately and this would (I think) greatly simplified whole communication "thing".

@new2stl and I've said already that I've watched all of them at least twice and in none of them answers to those questions are given. Second, Jim in his blog also doesn't give answers to them.

As for rage? Where on this or Jim's thread I "raged". I've asked you politely to point me to the specific time on a specific video which would demonstrate that what you're saying has any back up. But you, just in the style of guys from MS conveniently telling me to see those videos, again... even though I've just explained to you that I saw them at least twice, yet you do not answer what you've been asked. Just like they don't.

And as for deciphering "KMNY_a_ha"? Your point is? It's not like I've tried to conceal the fact that "KMNY_a_ha" and "Knowing me knowing you, a-ha" is same personr. I've explained that to Diegum long time ago that both nicknames are mine and the KMNY_a_ha is due to the fact that I cannot register myself with my original nickname on Channel9. So your point is, what? Sherlock?

So are you going to show in which video/blog herb sutter answers to those questions mentioned here, or you just going to simply state that those questions had been already answered?

@new2stl where (which video file, what time on this video) herb sutter answered to those questions? Would you mind pointing me to them? I'm asking you because I've watched it at least twice each of them and I cannot recall any of those answers being given. So could you kindly, point me out there?

Thanks

@PFYB and others - I'm sure there is only one person who can answer competently to all those "why" questions. Mr herb sutter - "the" C++ architect at MS.

Quick analogy:

There are std paper sizes and companies manufacturing printers operating on just on those std sizes - no company changes those standards. They just produce their products to be compatible with them so no matter which printer I buy/use I know that my standard paper size will work with this.

What Microsoft does is - manufacturing printer (just for simplicity call it VS without mentioning all bolts and nuts like compiler etc.) and on top of that is reinventing new paper sizes (every few years) that, and here may I have your attention, is almost identical to the standard sizes but slightly "improved" in order to better serve MS clients. But MS being over all a business don't won't to constrain itself just to MS clients. They say that if you want to print standard sizes - well, no problem at all. Just take the part A11, A125, R58 and D12 and fit them in slots shown in a picture inside a manual attached with our printer and here you go, from now on you can print std sizes!

And few years from now, there will be another paper size from MS. But not worry those who want print just standard paper sizes - MS will acomodate you appropriately.

@PFYB do you remember that long time ago I've told you a story about manager, customers and MS attitude to C++ and what will happen w/r to C++ in next VS? Was I wrong in any of those points I mentioned?

@Tony yes, definitely, let's shake hands and move on, that's the only way to go.

Regards

Artur

Hi Tony, thank you for your reply.

Few clarifications:

Clarification number one, when I wrote 'you' I meant MS *not you* as a Tony Goodhew

(English as wonderful as it is isn't my first language,  but that you've probably guessed

long time ago).

So just to make it straight once and for all - I DO NOT claim that you, Tony

Goodhew lied to me at any point. Please accept my sincere apologies for not

specifying this clearly. The only point in my previous post when I've referenced

you directly (as a Tony not as MS) is when I talk about you not answering to my

question in one of the threads but as I've mentioned already I'm simply unable to

find it.

Clarification number two: No Tony, I do not think that if you (MS) do not

implement 100% features it automatically means that you don't care, but for the

love of God at least implement some of them in every future release.

As for list of my "Most Wanted:"

0. Whole concurrency model - not just portion of it,

1. Variadic Templates + everything what concerns work with templates, like for example:

2. Default template arguments for function templates,

3. constexpr,

4. Non-static data member initializers,

5. Delegating/Inheriting ctors,

6. Defaulted and deleted fncs.

On the side:

I personally do not like to see explanation/implementation in the vain of (this

is from: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2011/09/12/10209291.aspx):

[begin of quote] "... This makes it (about override/final) an Ascended Extension, as VC already

supports this "override" syntax on functions, with semantics reasonably close to

C++11's.  "final" is also supported, but under the different spelling "sealed". 

This qualifies for "Partial" support in my table."[end of quote]

Either do it as it should be done or don't do it at all - reasonably close just

isn't good enough. And as for expecting us to use equivalent (sealed) instead of

final... As you've suggested Tony, let's move on.

[Note: ] Tony, I sincerely hope/believe that we (I/C++ community and you/MS) will be able

to communicate in the future with each other on equal/civilized terms.

Thank you.

Regards

Artur Czajkowski

@Tony the reasons I'm frustrated/irritated/angry/using your product:

1. Your product is most popular and due to this fact most companies use it, the one I work for uses it too. Now, due to this fact I have to work with your product, and due to this fact in turn I'm somewhat "trapped/forced" to use your product (for the exact same reason I use Windows and MS Office). I hope that this answer to the question why I'm using your product (for most of my work). Now, to the question why I'm so angry/frustrated/irritated. Ok, here we go: I'm not sure how it is in US but here in Europe we like to divide our time between work and family. In order to do so weekends are mostly reserved for the latter. But, but, but, but... As I've already explained, during my working hours I work with your product, which by being incompatible with the new standard disallows me to educate myself and stay on top of the C++ game. In order to do that I'm forced to:

 a) Use different product/compiler during weekends

 b) Instead of spending my dedicated for family time with my family I (because of you not providing conformant compiler) have to spend this time at the computer, and that I think makes me most angry. You literally stealing my family time. Is it good reason to get annoyed? I don't know you tell me.  

2. Do not lie to me/us (C++ community), treat us with respect - be honest, do not pretend. The whole business with C++ renaissance at MS is a lie. What C++ renaissance? It's C++/CX which conveniently no one from MS before //BUILD bothered to mention. What this created is this: a) you've (MS) raised our (C++ community) hopes and then with one swift blow knocked us down. b) you (MS) still trying to play this disgusting game of pretending that everything is ok and exactly as you've promised. No, it's not. Even those stupid examples on your website that have nothing to do with C++ are marked as C++ examples. What you doing is, you spitting on people's neck and trying to tell them that the rain is raining. Could this be seen as a reason to get irritated/angry/pissed off? I don't know, you tell me.

3. I bought some time ago for my own private use VS2010, just to be let's say "In your camp/playing on your side/support you etc.". Now it looks that in order to do modern ISO C++ I can throw your product through the window (I hoped that by buying update to VS.next will allow me to code in pure C++). But in order to do that I have to get FREE!!! GCC. Does that constitute to an annoying and irritating behaviour on your part? I don't know. Tony, you can answer that for yourself. I think MS is very well aware of the fact that most C++ guys are not really interested in your proprietary extensions etc. Most C++ guys want to code in ISO C++ and are absolutely uninterested in your extensions, which by the way brake C++ syntax - was it really necessary to do so? That's why, those who really love C++ (count me among them) didn't jump on your C# wagon few years ago and they stayed firmly and loyally with what they really love. You, (MS) trying to play on this feelings by raising campaign and trying to pretend that you really care (from now on) about C++ and C++ community. But the truth is that you don't really. Because if you cared Tony, core C++ features would be implemented first. Because they're core to C++ and C++ community. So again, you treating us like some kind of second class citizens, lying and pretending to us and ABSOLUTELY IGNORING what you hear from us:

http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/filters/top

Then you're surprised that some of us react harshly to your behaviour. You know, we are also humans, we also need to earn money and we understand that people are working in order to earn it. And I'm telling you right now that if you were honest with us (C++ community) and said something like:

"Guys, we really do want to engage again with C++ community but for now in order to keep our position in the market we have to do x, y, z (without giving sensitive information of course). Guys, we will not have time to implement core features in next release of VS but please stay with us and we will do everything what's in our power to improve this situation ASAP.

And let me tell you Tony that this would be received with understanding (because people are good by nature and understand that everyone wants to live) and would earn you credits as being honest company. Company who really cares about its costumers but for obvious reasons must do X,Y and Z in order to stay afloat.

But no, you (MS) didn't do that (as usual by the way). What you did is was lying/pretending and stalling us and ignore everything what you've heard from us just to at the end reveal that you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING prepared for C++ devs who want to do modern ISO C++ except for few libraries. Why the priorities have been wrongly assigned? Because you didn't really care/have other more important priorities. Could that be seen as annoying/irritating behaviour?

4. If you initiated dialog with someone/group of people, please continue it, not break it when the questions became "uneasy". You yourself Tony have been asked on few of the VS forums, also by myself (I've tried to look at this today but unfortunately couldn't find it) questions but did you bother to answer to it. As for very fresh example of starting a dialog and not bothering to continue: http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Raman-Sharma-Building-Metro-Style-Apps-with-C-and-JavaScript

Is that behaviour expected from professionalists/people who really care about their costumers? Could that be seen as annoying/irritating/arrogant behaviour which has the potential of making people angry? I don't know Tony, you tell me.

So just quick sum-up:

1. Do not lie to us, be honest, treat us with respect and you will be rewarded accordingly. This will get you somewhere and people will have respect for you for being honest. Lying/pretending will get you nowhere + you'll get irritated customers + you will be rewarded accordingly.

2. If you starting something (discussion for example) have the courtesy to continue and finish it in a civilized manner.

3. Don't be surprised that people are getting annoyed with you due to your negative/arrogant/ignorant behaviour.

I hope that this answers and explains why I (and I suspect few other people too), can feel irritated and angry with MS.

Thanks

Artur Czajkowski