1. Is WPF now the recommended technology for normal desktop apps? They barely mentioned desktop apps at build. WPF was mentioned a few times. WinForms was nowhere to be found.
2. If WPF is now the best way to write normal desktop apps, why haven't they improved it much? They did have a few slides mentioning some improvements that were made but WPF didn't seem very important.
3. What about Silverlight? They have been beating the HTML5 drum for a while now, so people assumed that Silverlight is dead and HTML5 should be used for cross platform LOB apps. But all of their tooling improvements are for Metro HTML5 apps only. Expression Blend doesn't do HTML5 for websites. It only does HTML5 for native windows Metro apps. If HTML5 is the future of cross platform LOB apps on the web, where is the designer tooling to enable these scenarios?

I have been using my own LCARS based operating system shells for Windows since Win 98! LCARS is what got me started programming!

You will get no argument from me!

In truth, you really could think of the Metro UI as a cousin of the LCARS UI.

• unknown

Metro is part of explorer.exe now. Explorer.exe used to just be the normal desktop+taskbar but it looks like Metro is a part of that process.

Ah the mango. A delicious fruit! Much tastier than an apple in my opinion. I hear its poisonous to androids.

Edit: Tom Warren is playing dirty tricks with my mind. He just appended a question mark to his article title.

If you purchase a computer from a standard OEM (Dell, HP, etc, etc) with Windows installed, it will not  just work. In fact, day to day usage of the computer is a very poor experience. This is because of all of the bloated crapware and out of date drivers that they preinstall. Boot up times are sluggish. Software installation is error prone. The registry is flooded with useless nonsense. There are too many useless processes and services running.

If you purchase a computer and do a fresh install of Windows plus up to date drivers, it will just work. Boot up times are fast. Application launch times are fast. Software installation is much less error prone (excluding the occasional poorly written installer). Very few processes and services are running.

The vast majority of people experience Windows through a crapware infested PC courtesy of their friendly neighborhood OEM. I am of the strong belief that this is a big contributing factor to the perception that Windows PCs do not "just work" as well as, say, a Mac which does not come out of the box in a corrupted state.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/06/windows-8-for-software-developers-the-longhorn-dream-reborn.ars/

2 hours ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

and Windows Phone are sound there are two concerns I have with this:

1. Microsoft hasn't said anything that remotely resembles this senario. After the last debacle over Silverlight's "death" you think Microsoft would have learned about the importance of keeping their dev's informed and being at least remotely honest and transparent with us.

I am still holding out hope that they want to make some big splash at Build by announcing Jupiter and the ability to write an app once and run on xbox, phone, and pc. It's my last thread of hope before the HTML+JS apocalypse.

Check out this post: http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/26404-Windows-8-(7955)-Findings-in-M3-Leak?p=444524&viewfull=1#post444524 and the one following it. Specifically, take a look at this screenshot: http://xs.to/photo/4437

(I saw someone else link to this thread in another post so hopefully its not against any rules)

Edit: I tried in vain to fix that first link, right down to editing the html, but could not make it display the link properly. Oh well.

If this is true, it would certainly make a lot of sense. Having a unified development platform based on Silverlight would allow Microsoft to achieve their vision of "three screens and a cloud". Not to mention the awesome benefits it would provide for .Net developers. I could see people implementing MVVM and writing their business/data layers once, but swapping out the UI layer to fit the device its running on.

Think his claims have merit or is this just another piece of speculation surrounding W8 and Silverlight? Discuss!

However, I'm curious, why would you want to implement this in a Windows application?

Steve Jobs is probably wetting his pants from laughter at all of this. Apple thinks of HTML5 as a nice marketing buzz word to distract from the fact that they don't want to add Flash support because they want all "rich" apps to funnel through their app store. They don't care about being open or interop friendly and it is working for them.

Until then, it's a shame their customers have to get information covertly via anonymous insiders. Microsoft would do well to heed Mary Jo's advice and do some damage control.

Using live tiles with a mouse is just like using desktop shortcuts. As for the app switching, I'm sure you can use alt+tab to accomplish the same thing. I'm sure Alt+F4 will close a chromeless app. The shell is probably full of keyboard shortcuts and provisions for mouse operation. I don't really think it will be that terrible, just something to get used to. Obviously the immersive shell will really shine on touch enabled hardware. I really need to use it on non-touch hardware with a mouse and keyboard to get an actual impression for how it will feel.

1. I'd like a tile that shows my cpu and gpu temps in real time so I can make sure my watercooling system is functioning properly. HTML5+Javascript can access low level hardware information, right? Right?
2. Let me join the chorus: Tiles made in Silverlight.

12 seconds ago, BitFlipper wrote

*snip*

The problem is that the wording was such that it sounded like HTML5/JS was the only option. The fact that this thing is getting so much attention proves the uncertainty that this created. Whether it is true or not is a critical piece of information which could affect development decisions of current and upcoming projects. The idea that the .Net platform might very well be deprecated will throw up all sorts of red flags for projects currently in planning stages or early development stages. To minimize that is just wrong.

MS screwed up by creating this confusion in the first place, and they should fix it. Unfortunately it seems they are protecting the details for the sake of creating some sort of dramatic "reveal" at BUILD. All while being oblivious to the damage that is currently being done to the .Net platform and the whole development community.

Personally I think the whole idea is too stooopid to be true. There's just no way future Windows applications will all have to be HTML5/JS crApplets. It just doesn't add up.

I agree. I hate to say it but, Microsoft is terrible at PR and advertising. They just are. They need to realize that, everytime they make an announcement, the world's largest developer base is listening to every word. They also need to realize that CIOs and decision makers are listening intently and planning for upcoming products.

When the whole "our silverlight strategy has shifted" scare happened, my boss nearly did a "halt the presses" on our innovative flagship product written in Silverlight. And things were going very well with it too. Luckily, Microsoft came out with assurances and he decided to continue. However, they waited WAY too long to come out with those assurances. Rumors and speculation spread like wildfire, despite their credibility.

Microsoft needs to understand the gravity of their position and take great care with how they craft their messages. They also need to actively spot and squash rumors early on.

6 minutes ago, JoshRoss wrote

 And, Windows Media Player, in every release of Windows, seems out of place.

I noticed that in the immersive shell, media files open in a full screen WP7 style player. I hope they kill Windows Media Player completely in favor of this. Or at least replace it with Zune.

1. I don't want to loose my job.
2. You haven't heard the whole story.
3. Stop this speculation.
4. Wait until Build in september for the whole story.
5. I am not confirming or denying anything but there is more you don't know.
6. I don't want to loose my job.

At this point in time I kind of get the feeling that what they really want to say is:

"GEEZ! All we did was mention that we are adding a new option for development. We never said we are going to throw out existing development options. We also never said that we weren't incorporating the existing development options like Silverlight into the immersive shell (which we are but you will find out the details at Build when we make some exciting announcements)."

But maybe that's just my impression. I hope it's right.

However, I find myself skeptical of HTML5+JS. I spend 40 hours of my time each week writing and maintaining real LOB applications. We have a WinForms version and are currently working on a Silverlight version. We even have an installation experience based on WPF. Throughout these experiences, we have had to tackle many difficult problems. Looking back over it all, I really question whether or not HTML5+Javascript are realistically capable of some of our application's requirements. I say realistically because it's not just a matter of technical capability. It's also a matter of productivity and maintenance. We would certainly have a much longer time to market trying to develop a full LOB app in HTML5+JS versus Silverlight (at least, given the current state of tooling for HTML5+JS).

The ability run on the PC and Mac satisfy's the majority of our end user scenarios. After all, who is going to use a full featured LOB app on their phone? Most people will be using it on office computers. A few will take their work home and log in from their personal computers. However, there is something to be said about the ability to perform "lite" functions from a phone or tablet. If we ever decide to make a "lite" version of our LOB app that maybe lets you view some data or make some minor changes, we will probably use HTML5+JS. JavaScript is capable enough for this kind of application. Since these technologies are cross-platform, we can be assured that the majority of phones/tablets out there will support it.

7 minutes ago, Bass wrote

From your rant, it seems the only reason you need a "clear direction" from Microsoft is because you want to blindly follow whatever they tell you to do. Sounds like a case of the blind leading the blind.

You ought to be competent enough to make your own professional decisions.

My apologies if my post came across as a rant. I am really just seeking input from other developers on their point of view regarding these platforms in light of the available information from Microsoft.

I do not want to blindly follow what Microsoft tells me. I do, however, want to know if I should continue to invest in Silverlight. Not just from a developer skills point of view but also from the point of view of a decision maker. I can easily make my own decisions but I'd prefer to do so in an informed way. It's difficult to do this when the future of some of these platforms is uncertain.

I think that Microsoft has been sending a LOT of confusing messages to its developers regarding their long term strategy for Windows and Web development lately. Is anyone else getting this impression also?

First we are told that WPF is the future of application development on Windows, and Silverlight for the web. Microsoft made Windows Phone and chose to use Silverlight (and XNA) as its development platform. This is, I think, a great idea since it lets devs bring over their skills.

However, it seems that Microsoft has recently been teetering on the edge of abandoning Silverlight in favor of HTML5+Javascript. The Mix '11 conference this year had barely a mention of Silverlight, with the exception of the Silverlight 5 beta announcement. It was all about HTML5. After talking to several Microsoft employees while I was there, they assured me that Silverlight still has a future, but always tacked on the note that HTML5 is good for cross platform applications.

Today, Microsoft announced some of its plans regarding Windows 8 and its immersive tablet UI. See http://allthingsd.com/20110601/exclusive-making-sense-of-what-we-just-learned-about-windows-8/ and http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx.

I had expected to see a Silverlight based "app" platform, just like on the Windows Phone. I had also expected to see a clear path for Windows Phone developers to be able to port their apps over to the tablet experience, just like with the iPad. Instead, Microsoft has announced that the "app" development platform for Windows 8 will be based on HTML5+Javascript. When asked about Silverlight, Steven Sinofsky replied that the touch version of IE supports Silverlight, but it almost seemed like he was saying it's there for legacy support. There was no mention of using Silverlight to create apps like on Windows Phone.

It seems like this will create a very fragmented development experience for Windows and raises several questions. Here are mine:

1) How can devs write apps for both Windows Phone and Windows Tablets? Surely you can't expect them to write their app in Silverlight and then write it again in HTML5.

2) Will the Windows Phone app platform also be based on HTML5 eventually?

3) It seems that HTML5 is soon going to be an important development platform for "native" apps in addition to web apps. Is Microsoft abandoning Silverlight/WPF in favor of HTML5?

4) There are currently no good Microsoft tools for making HTML5 based applications. I am talking about real LOB apps, not web pages. There is no GUI tool like Blend. Does Microsoft really expect Windows developers to embrace Javascript over C#? The current development experience around HTML5+Javascript is beyond inferior to .Net based platforms.

As a developer, I am always looking towards the future to keep my skills polished. However, I am concerned over the lack of a clear direction from Microsoft.

Am I overreacting, perhaps? Thoughts?

I agree. The message I'm getting is that Microsoft is adopting two platforms for the web. This is the shift in focus. Previously, Silverlight was the only platform they had to offer.

HTML 5 is great for cross platform and for making websites which include (limited) rich interactivity. HTML 5 raises the baseline of what the web is capable of. Its kind of a Tier 1 for the web.

Silverlight is Tier 2 for the web. It provides a premium experience for LOB/RIA, Media, and WP7 applications. Silverlight is great for targeting specific supported devices.

I can understand that people might be confused and think that the newest baby (HTML 5) is going to replace Silverlight. For me, recent comments from Microsoft employees have clearly explained this is not the case. My favorite comment is from Brian Goldfarb. I think he does a good job of sumarizing Microsoft's intended message:

"Silverlight is definitely alive and well and goes far beyond just WP7. I think that is pretty clear from Bob's post, but I'll reiterate it again. Silverlight will continue to be invested in across the board. It is the way to build Apps for Windows Phone 7, but it is also and will continue to be the best solution for premium media experiences and business applications both inside and outside the browser on Windows and the Mac. The key thing that has been clarified, is that we see HTML as the technolgy that gets you *everywhere*. In fact, for the broadest reach today the solution you should use is HTML4. But if want a richer, more tailored experience, on the devices and areas we support (and we are investing in this with Windows Embedded, Automotive, Desktop, Phone, and more in the future) both in and out of the browser than Silverlight was and continues to be your best solution.

Hope this helps!

-Brian Goldfarb (@bgoldy, bgold@microsoft.com)
Director, Developer Platforms
Microsoft"