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Discussions

brian.shapiro brian.​shapiro things go on as always
  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , magicalclick wrote

    *snip*
    oh great. Since when you make the final say about the behavior of taskbar? First, I don't believe you one bit. Show me exact MS official document on how taskbar MUST behave. Second, after that, I can still say your old bible is old and you are not the pope of me.

    He may not be, but I am the pope of you.

    Seriously, I see his point. A lot of Metro apps you just want to go in for a second and then leave; like visiting a website. I'm not used to closing them, yet, so I'm surprised some are still sitting on the taskbar, and then I close them. In a web browser, you expect to just navigate away, not have to close every site, same thing.

    On the other hand, I think it makes sense to show them on the taskbar, as we're moving to both windowed Metro apps and using a full-screen vs. windowed metaphor. So I figure its just something I'll have to get used to.

    Unless there's some better solution.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    contextfree,

    You use that many modern apps at once?

  • IE6 hate is misdirected

    It was good in the end that all the noise coming from alternative browser users eventually led to standards-conformance, I guess. It doesn't really excuse all the ignorance, though.

  • IE6 hate is misdirected

    Also, at the time, every other browser that was released didn't conform to standards, either. Firefox at first didn't. Chrome at first didn't. Safari at first didn't. Opera at first didn't. It took each of them some time to get up to code. In the mean time, web devs often had to do work-arounds to deal with the quirks of each of them. It was quite annoying.

    That didn't stop non-IE browser users from talking as if they were on a moral high ground.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    --- Wait a minute.... I just took a look at my upgraded W8.1U1 PC and the start screen does have a scrollbar. Are you just bothered by the use of Fitts Law that enables the infinity tall taskbar hit target getting in your way of clicking of the scrollbar? Sorry if I misunderstood. In any case having that option to disable the taskbar behavior would be a nice addition in the next update. Maybe you should log something in UserVoice?

    Yea, the problem is that if you click the Start Button, the taskbar stays there until you do something to get it to go away. The problem with that is that if you're using the Start Screen as a mouse + keyboard user, the most natural thing is to move immediately from the Start button to the scrollbar -- which would normally be a couple of pixels away -- and then scroll to the apps you want to go to.

    Microsoft broke this pattern with Update 1.

    I have no problem in concept with the taskbar being able to show up on the Start Screen. I was worried that they would break the scrollbar entirely and break semantic zoom behavior, but they figured out a way to get both of them to play nice together. Still, I don't think they seriously thought about how mouse+keyboard users who like the Start Screen actually use it. If they did, I don't think they would have broken this pattern.

    I'm still not clear on why the Start Screen needs the taskbar btw. You can't drag tiles on to the taskbar (you get Semantic zoom), and you can't drag taskbar buttons on to the Start Screen. There's no interaction between the two. They probably did it based on an argument for visual cues and UI consistency, but there's no real usability justification for it.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    LOL! That's one of my big issues with the start screen. It's not as compact as the start menu and requires so much scrolling. Just install a start menu replacement for now and your scrolling problems on the start screen are solved! :)

    I had no problems scrolling the Start Screen. I set it to about two pages wide. I like that its not compact; the compactness of the Start Menu is a pain.

    The question is why they changed the Start Screen behavior to please people who were going to use the Start Menu anyway.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    That seems like a lot of work to scroll (i.e. targeting the scroll bar). Maybe using <PAGE UP>/<PAGE DOWN> would work better for you than the scroll wheel? ;) (Just a bit of sarcasm there as I'm not fond of people excusing bad behavior with "you just have to learn the keyboard shortcuts")



    I'm sure I'll get used to it... doesn't really change whats better behavior, though. It was pretty intuitive to be able to press the Start Menu and then move right with your mouse to scroll. I think they're making it more clumsier to please the complainers, but the complainers will probably disable the Start Screen and use the Start Menu instead anyway.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    Oh man, I'm so used to using the scrollbar to scroll the Start Screen as soon as I had it open, now I have to remember to use the scroll wheel. The taskbar doesn't disappear until you force it to.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , contextfree` wrote

    Yeah, I don't personally find that many of the changes actually make it better for mouse and keyboard in any inherent way, they are just trading one set of problems for another.

    I like context menus, but I just find them overrated and thought nothing was wrong with the context bar. I'm working on some Desktop apps right now and am thinking about mimicking the pre-Update 1 behavior of the Start Screen with right-click selection, instead of context menus. Nothing to do with 'touch', in my mind, though making touch use easier is a side benefit.

    Notice that Desktop Office even does away with the context menu concept a bit by showing a floating toolbar when you have a selection. The context menu isn't gone, but you use the floating toolbar more often.

  • Dat Start Menu (NOT COMING IN 8.1 Update BUT SOME TIME LATER edition)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    "Rebalance" is where you got it wrong IMO. They are restoring the desktop with the return of the start button (and start menu in the future), context menus, options to stay on the desktop, etc. You don't remove something and then put it back and call it "rebalancing" like it was all part of a master plan. If they were truly "rebalancing" we'd see changes like allowing WPF apps access to WinRT APIs like share contracts. To-date the best they can muster on the WPF front is "WPF is not dead".

    Also where do you get the idea that people are calling for Microsoft to roll back its mobile strategy? Restoring the desktop and providing a more mouse + keyboard friendly version of the start screen and other store-esq additions is hardly a rollback of their mobile strategy. If anything they've gotten smarter with their mobile strategy with the addition of things like Universal apps -- something that should have been part of the plan back with WP7.

    I would have preferred it if it were more rebalancing than restoring. :/ I just don't think the changes work too well, even for the mouse+keyboard.