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dahat dahat inanity makes my head hurt
  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , cbae wrote

    Nice dodge.This is the second time you dismissed a hypothetical as "implausible" or "irrelevant".

    You have no leg to stand on when repeatedly you've simply dismissed counter arguments with even less of a response... but then this is typical behavior from a proven hypocrite who is on the record advocating for the removal of rights from some, but outraged about the attempted removal of rights from others.

    As I said before (notice how I keep citing things despite your refusals to do likewise?):

    , dahat wrote

    Unlike you though, I think through different aspects of hypotheticals to determine it's likelihood and quality of application to a given situation... this like others of yours here keep on failing for the same reason... poor planning.

    Understand yet? Or should I repeat myself even more about my supporting of free speech, including that which I disagree with?

    Yet you boasted several times about how you'd defend the KKK or NAMBLA's right to speak at some imaginary event you'd actually give a rat's * about.

    You forgot the Democrat party... and on my street no less:

    , dahat wrote

    I've long said that if the KKK, Democrat Party or NAMBLA want to march down my street... they are welcome to it, despite the fact I am vehemently against most of what they say.

    And boasted 'several times'? I'd referenced the first post later as you kept trying to justify your irrelevant hypotheticals which were along the lines of "Well if in another situation, if so and so had said something waaaay worse... then would it be ok to fire him?" sort.

    It's pretty damn easy to brag about how principled you are when you get to pick and choose when you apply your principles.

    You keep trying to find fault with my principals and their application (based on your limited understanding of both) and keep failing so miserably.

    Have I sought to deny someone the opportunity to speak or punish someone for something they said which I may have disagreed with or even found offensive?



    Of course, much of this is moot as you continue to pick & choose which points to address and so ignore the rest, somehow pretending that if you can nit-pick one thing enough, the entire argument fails... as you just did here.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , ScanIAm wrote

    2000 years...

    So Islam & Mormonism are cults? ...just to name a couple more recent religions.

    , ScanIAm wrote

    How, again, was this a witch hunt?

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

    The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies). This usage is especially associated with the Second Red Scare of the 1950s, with the McCarthyist persecution of suspected communists in the United States.

    Yup, that definition does seem to apply to this case.

    What level of speech counter to the companies' values can be considered unacceptable?

    What level of speech are usually considered unacceptable?

    Nobody is stating that he can't say stupid things, and nobody is taking away his freedoms.

    I'm pretty sure that California labor law disagrees.

    He represented the public shareholder face of a company and the shareholders decided that their core values don't jibe with his.

    Public shareholders? Who? Are you even aware of how Mozilla is structured? Mozilla Corporation is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation (a 501(c)3). If you can find shares on the open market... that'd be quite a surprise to many.

    If Steve Jobs rose from the grave and stated "I'm really not very happy with race mixing and Oh, BTW, Jews suck.", then the first thing that would happen is we'd all say "Whoa, Steve Jobs is a Zombie!", but the second thing we'd say is "Wow, that guy is a racist, and he can't come back and run Apple again"

    Unless Eich actually said something to the effect of what you described regarding... any group... your attempted analogy doesn't hold much relevance.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , magicalclick wrote


    Freedom of Speech includes the following right: everyone has the right to protest something or someone peacefully. I don't think there is much a debate to be had here.

    Only to a point (and no, I'm not going to cite the often misunderstood example of 'yelling fire in a crowded theater'), location, time & place restrictions often come into play... as does what one does in response to such protest can be unlawful... take this blurb of California law:

    No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity.

    And it's not me pointing that out, but even some lawyers.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , AndyC wrote

    Eich funded a campaign that attempted, and briefly succeeded, to deny American citizens a right bestowed upon them by the constitution.

    President Obama spoke out against sex marriage at the same time... and even later.

    Joe Biden voted for the Defense of Marriage act, which Bill Clinton signed it into law (not to mention implementing Don't Ask Don't Tell).

    Is not the United States a place built on the idea that "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"?

    Clearly then, all three are unfit for high position in such a land as this. Even if they did not donate a dollar to a Prop 8 like campaign, ALL (until their recanting) had far larger bullhorns with which to speak out against same-sex marriage and do more damage to the cause than a thousand Eich's could have done... which they also used.

    This is the double standard at work, at least have the honesty to admit it.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , AndyC wrote

    If Microsoft had been built around an ethic that had been instrumental in their success, *snip*

    The excuse of 'ethic' keeps being used as a justification, just the same way as someone on the other side might say "religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin... which is why it's ok to fire anyone I think is gay."

    Context is everything.

    Doubly so when one side purposely defines a context to suit their side of the debate and seek to prohibit counter arguments or evidence.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , AndyC wrote

    The employer in this case doesn't appear to have done anything to put Mr Eich in a position where he has no choice but to resign, rather he appears to have done rather a good job of that himself. You can't claim constructive dismissal in response to bringing a company into disrepute and expect it to stand up in court.

    Which actions did he take or or statements did he make *while CEO* which brought the company into disrepute?

    The LA Times has had a list of Prop 8 donors for a number of years now... it's even online. The fact of Mr Eich's donation has been publically known since at least 2012 per Wikipedia.

    Either the search committee wasn't sufficiently diligent, or ignored this fact... and when it blew up in their collective faces they distanced themselves from their decision through their silence. In such an environment when those who just hired you are no longer willing to publically support you... I'd say that's pretty constructive.

    Peaceful protest by boycott is not tort, so unless he can prove the claims that he donated to Prop 8 were factually inaccurate and intended to maliciously damage his career, he again has no leg to stand on.

    You aren't thinking this through. His donation is just as legal as those who said "I disagree with his appointment as CEO"... the moment they added "and we wish to cause harm to him and/or the company to force him out"... that is tortious interference.

    It's the same kind of difference between saying "I think you should get beat up" vs "I am going to help get you beat up". When said about the right person, both can earn you a visit from the Secret Service, only one where you are actually taking actions yourself will likely see charges.

    , Jason818 wrote

    You can't fire some one because of their religion.

    Um... actually you can. Yes, it's unlawful, it is certainly doable... and something that can be gotten away with if executed correctly.

    Companies for quite some time have dealt with claims of unlawful decimation because the terminated person claims that their membership in a protected class was the reason... as a result a smart company will keep copious documentation related to job performance & discipline... so that if the time to dismiss someone comes for a lawful reason, there is a good paper trail to show that it was for that reason.

    The up (and downside) of this process, is that it also means that you terminate someone for an unlawful reason provided there a sufficient documented history which can be used as the official reason.

  • Microsoft eliminates license fee on all phones and mid-sized tablets running Windows

    Not to mention a future Windows IoT (Internet of Things) SKU for the same price.

    Come on Windows powered router!

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    Ignoring the morality of the retribution involved here... I got a thinking this evening about something I've not heard any talk of... what kind of payout Eich will or did receive.

    While most of us are at-will employees who can be canned at the slightest whim and for a good number of reasons, it's very common for high level execs to have some type of contract which make that much much harder (hint: it's where golden parachutes tend to come from, along with other perks & promises).

    In all likelihood, the Mozilla board made Eich a sizeable offer to encourage him to walk away, with the condition he drop any potential suits against them.

    In the less likely event that he did voluntarily resign with no internal pressure, promises or perks from the board, constructive dismissal could still apply.

    There is another part... the potentially malicious tortious interference seen from a good number of external parties ... which could see the likes of OKCupid (amongst others) having to pay up either to settle or defend itself against such claims.

    Seems I'm not the only one thinking along these lines.

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , cbae wrote

    @dahat: It's a hypothetical. JHC

    Gee! I hadn't noticed!

    Unlike you though, I think through different aspects of hypotheticals to determine it's likelihood and quality of application to a given situation... this like others of yours here keep on failing for the same reason... poor planning.

    Good thing I checked to see if you'd dishonestly edited your post prior to clicking submit....

    You are defending speech to the extreme.

    I defend most speech (remember my example of the KKK, Democrat party & NAMBLA?), even extreme speech that I disagree with. Notice I've not called for your silencing or firing... only asking you to comply with your own stance.

    I gave an extreme case. Can Mozilla pass him over if he admitted to hating gays?

    It was an utterly nonsense case which in no way relates to reality.

    Could Mozilla pass him over of he turned out to be an Martian? What if he was a Martian illegally in the country? What if he, used to be a she, but is now gay, a of a faith that required him to wear certain clothing items that did meet the normal dress code requirements of the company, and for medical reasons could only eat smelly cheese? Would civil rights, employment discrimination and medical privacy law still apply?

    Try to stick to the facts why don't you?

  • Brandan Eich Steps Down as CEO of Mozilla

    , cbae wrote

    Suppose Eich wasn't already an employee but was being interviewed the position of CEO, and during the vetting process it was discovered that he donated to Yes on Prop 8.

    Asking such a thing would be risky, in fact it'd be about as smart to ask a female candidate if she was planning on getting pregnant... because he need only raise the "it was based on my religious beliefs card... and if doesn't get the job... lawsuit time.

    And when asked about it, he admits that he hates gays and affirmed that even now he does not believe that gay marriages should be legally recognized.

    Way to put words in someone's mouth... or do you have a SPECIFIC QUOTE (of course not, you refuse to cite anything but yourself for the most part) that demonstrates that he "hates gays"?

    Clearly he's a smarter person than you to get to where he did... so clearly he would know (if he had such views) how to answer the question in a way that wouldn't shoot himself in the foot.

    Would it be OK for Mozilla to pass him over for the position considering the corporations well document stance on supporting LGBT equality?

    Know how I've said you are amazingly close minded and refuse to consider citations? Well yeah, I discussed that already... he's already discussed that rather recently, something you casually dismissed out of hand without explanation (a common behavior of yours).

    Could their decision stand up in civil court if Eich were to take this to court for discrimination on the basis of his religion?

    As you described... no... but given realistic circumstances, oh yes... but then, why trouble yourself with reality?