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magicalclick magicalclick C9 slogan, #dealwithit. WinPh8.1 IE empty tab crash and removable video control edition.
  • DeLorean

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    Yes you can.  That's the point of DeLorean.

    If somehow your game stream only needs 1 bps, then the DeLorean-based server might use 4 bps:  4 streams, 1 bps per stream.

    The server will generate the 4 guesses, and their corresponding video streams, several hundred milliseconds before you are expected to execute the action.

    Then the server sends all 4 streams.  They arrive about the time you hit the button, and therefore the client can choose which of those 4 matches the button you hit.  This reduces perceived lag.

     

    There's no point of arguing if it can work... they have demonstrated that it works.  The only arguments are around bandwidth.  These are fine arguments, but there is little use in claiming that the research is wasteful.  It's not the researchers who will decide when and how to market this.  Let them do their job, researching.  Let the marketers and higher-ups worry about when to put it on the shelves.

    (A much better problem to have than, say, waking up one day without a solution and finding that your competition has not only beat you to the punch but is annihilating your market.... ahem... Microsoft's mobile strategy that you guys LOVE SO MUCH.)


    You keep missing the point. I am talking about YOU lagging in front of OTHER PLAYERS. I am not talking about you playing the game smoothly. And that case #1.

    In the case of 200 ping on CS:S right now, you play perfectly smooth already. A lot of time YOU do not experience the lag yourself. It is the other players seeing you teleporting wanted you leave the server. And that's case #1.

    And I DID NOT say the research is wasteful. Please refrain from making false claims about my posts.

  • DeLorean

    , bondsbw wrote

    @magicalclick:  You are incorrect.  DeLorean is not about video buffering, #3 as you call it.  In fact, video buffering isn't a problem anyway... it's the solution to a problem, and it's been solved for a long time.  Nothing new there.

    DeLorean is specifically trying to solve #1.  You have ample bandwidth and some latency.  So the server predicts several possible outcomes, streams those simultaneously (over your ample bandwidth connection), and the client picks the outcome based on what button(s) the user presses.



    Imagine you only need on bit per second. And you get lag #1 and you have ping of 200. You can't do anything with extra bandwidth. You will teleport in CS:S ***to be clear, in front of other players*** , period.

  • DeLorean

    Hi all, I just want to give this topic a little more direction. The following is my personal opinion of course, but, I think is valid.

    So, in the thread, we have been making a lot of assumptions on this technology. I will point this out clearly.

    1) In the online gaming, we have something called LAG. LAG is you have a stable internet connection, but, the distance is too long, something you would get from international phone call.

    2) You can also get LAG when you internet connection is slower. Now, this is not distance based. It simply means it the pipe is thinner. The speed is the same. The distance is the same. So when to pump your water in a thinner pipe, you get less volume than a bigger pipe (same speed, aka different water pressure).

    3) There is this thing called Buffering. Buffering is different than LAG. LAG is more associated with small bytes traveling through the pipe. Buffering is a magnitude larger.

    4) Unstable internet. Lets just say your up and down stream disappeared for one second.

    Ok, now I have explained three cases. Let's be all technical. 2 and 3 are both affected by packet size. Only the first cases based on distance. As pointed out, 2 and 3 having magnitude of packet difference.

    Now, what is DeLorean trying to solve? #3 only.

    You can't fix #1, you need fiber optic to get a faster speed physically, regardless bandwidth.

    You can't fix #2, because your internet bandwidth sux in the first place.

    You can't do much with #4, the server think you are not moving for one second. Of course, we do have logic to compute this, but, regardless, a one second is a long time, other players will see you teleport for certain amount of distance, and they will tell you to leave if you teleport frequently.

    #3 is the one DeLorean trying to solve. Which only deals with video buffering. Meaning you have lots of bandwidths, just that the speed isn't so perfect for IMAGE only. Like I said, this does not solve the teleport when you lag on current PC games.

    Conclusion. It wont solve the problem you have right now. What it does, is to bring Video Stream on par with what you have right now, at cost of using excessive bandwidth.

    Now, I do believe Video Steaming has its market. Hotel will benefit greatly. Phone will benefit greatly. It brings high fidelity gaming to incapable machines.

    But, the excessive use of bandwidths for hours and hours isn't all that great from an efficiency perspective. You pissed off neighbors on cable. You pissed of your roommate. You pissed off ISP.

    This shouldn't be playing BC games. That's a pure waste of bandwidths. It should play games that your hardware can't handle. So, at least wasteful bandwidth is a little more justified.

    There is a market. And providing this technology will make the service more attractive for people who can do it, or even lower resolution in favor of smoother experience.

    But, back to System War. It is not as high priority as bringing 1080p to many XboxOne games. It is not as high priority as DX12 improvement. And for capable machines like a gaming console, it makes more sense to bring visual enhancements using cloud, than simply playing games.

    Like I said, I much prefer them render the scenes certain distance away from the player (crazy destruction and etc). That is the first step. And then, they can bring much smoother version of that with DeLorean.

    Of course, one they have a OnLive setup, DeLorean will become high priority.

  • DeLorean

    @evildictaitor:

    Good thing you have never been to Gamespot System War forum. You wont survive very long. Because you will be so depresses with all the 720p jokes. Hell, even 928p is a joke for them. Anything hitting less than what PS4 can do, is automatically a fail.

  • DeLorean

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I, for one, look forward wistfully to the futuristic utopian world of which you describe when ordinary folk may be able to purchase speeds as high as 2.4-7Mbps on the open-market so they can stream games with 1.5-4.5 bandwidth overhead at native Xbox-360 resolution (720p)


    I for one will game on a new console of 8K. Or tablet at 1080p on the go with multiplayer using LTE.

  • The Windows Desktop is dead

    , wkempf wrote

     "There is no middle ground between devices that have the Modern UI and devices that have the desktop. You either have the desktop or you have the Modern UI, you cannot have both. As reported around a month ago, the Start Menu for desktop users in Windows Threshold can 'act' like a full screen Start Menu however, meaning if you want that functionality you can have it on the desktop. This will be helpful for devices like the Surface Pro 3."

    Hugely stupid. It may make sense to remove the start screen for obviously desktop devices (though I do know a number of non-techie people who like the start screen on desktop computers). However, for hybrid devices it makes no sense to not support both. Full screen or not, a start menu desktop approach would stink when using a Surface Pro as a tablet/consumption device. I use my Pro for both scenarios, and appreciate Win8 as it is today for enabling me to efficiently do either. Make a hard distinction in the OS here will kill hybrid devices like the Surface Pro.


    I don't understand why couldn't we gave both. Let's hope this is a rumor because I would have to wait for another two years for ultimate (pro) edition to come out.

  • DeLorean

    @evildictaitor:
    The research is there to demonstrate it can be done. Personally I think you are too optimistic about it.

    D-pad is crucial for some games. analog stick is even more crucial on Forza. And it is not just predicting your own action, you need to predict opponents actions. Unlike online game, the lag is only signal distance because the netcode is small. You are sending the graphics, not netcode, so you need to predict other people's action as well.

    The research is there to say what kind of challenge it will face. And it is a very big challenge.

  • The Windows Desktop is dead

    If they screw up WP development cycle even worse than as of now, the WP is indeed a dead end. Once they do that, I will have have a year of speculation before giving up on WP ( aka, get WP this year, see WP9 next year, decide the following year based on how the market reacts).

    A desktop less Windows? That is just a WinRT without control panel windows.

    A restricted desktop only version to piss off the people who are able to do both on Win8?

    Well, I will wait and see if they have already given up pushing apps into business sector already or not. And of course, I am anticipated to see how they fail to fix the broken , hmmm.... What is that called again? The Windows Store App? Awesome awesome brand name.

    And hooray for Vista editions again if that is true. Vista Basic, Vista Business, Vista Home Prenium, Vista Ultimate (scratch Ultimate, this may not happen). Vista is revolutionary BTW. Loved Vista Business Image Backup. And Vista Home Premium Media feature is very cool. And the Vista Ultimate animated background is very fancy.

  • DeLorean

    , bondsbw wrote

    @magicalclick:  Fine, but you suggested that Microsoft should not focus on DeLorean:

    *snip*

    Which implies you were worried that they are focusing on it.



    Well.... Not sure how we get to that point, but, ok.

  • DeLorean

    @kettch:
    I repeat again: I have never said we don't need the research.

    I don't know what you are trying to say, but, it is safe to assume MS prioritize research projects. That's what I have been keep repeating myself. Of course, MS may not prioritize their research projects. If MS indeed did not prioritize research projects, I would like to see proof on that.