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Discussions

Vesuvius vesuvius Count Orlock
  • I downgraded to Vista

    Bas said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    All fine, I'm just saying that there  are plenty of intelligent people here on nine, and some of them actually like the taskbar. Saying that "the task bar is a case of the Emperors New Clothes" is basically saying that these people are gullible simpletons that'll immediately love anything Microsoft tells them is great.
    If you don't like the new taskbar, fine. There's plenty I don't like about it either. But saying that the only reason people can possible like it is because they've been told to, rather than because of what they saw and experienced themselves? I don't know.

    Luckily, initially I installed Windows 7 onto an old hard drive, and have managed to hook it up now.



    My Windows 7 task bar will be set to "Never Combine" as the image above shows. It is then possible to use the task bar in the traditional manner, but it negates all the hard work the windows team have done.

    My disapprobation has been centred around the fact that suddenly when you are used to taking an escalator (to get to the first floor) in a building, you are told that you must take an elevator.

    Sometimes, it is quicker to use one or the other (if going to the third floor for instance), not the impression given thus far by the Windows team, that you either use an elevator, or everything else is like using steps.

    This is the lesson all proponents of the task bar must learn.

  • I downgraded to Vista

    Bas said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*


    That's a very dismissive attitude, if not simply an insult of the intelligence of some people here on C9.
    Even the most Gifted and Intelligent people make mistakes, take your recent UAC debacle.

    I say what I think - and will stand by my errors in judgement, and openly admit to them - and certainly don't mean to insult the intelligence of some people here on nine. From luminaries like Larry Osterman, to PaoloM and BHpaddock, one is certainly privileged to have the opportunity to interact with people on the cutting room floor.

    I do know however, that developing software is hard, whether at Microsoft or at a small start up, and Microsoft employees don't always have the correct answers or solutions, and my considerable experience supporting users in languages that pre-date C and applications made in those languages, gives me a certain confidence when I see features that are going to cause problems down the the line. I am a qualified C++ developer so don't really feel that there is magic going on in Windows, any more than an Air Traffic Control system written in C. This stuff is all hard and I give my respect to Microsoft and the folks at events like JAOO etc. Until the recent interest in concurrency, few people had heard of Haskell or functional programming. Look at MVC or the MVP patterns that are emerging, even the PEX video recently posted based on Bertrand Meyers Eiffel (design by contracts). This isn't all just Microsoft stuff, and you will find these people far more scathing compared with the misperceived insults I have not made.

    I am not a betting man, but am willing to be you any amount of money you like, that unless changes are made, then there will be a backlash at the current task bar, and that a lot of people will opt to revert to the previous setup. This is because an attempt has been made to fix a problem that did not exist.

  • I downgraded to Vista

    Bas said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*


    You probably have your reasons, but I personally never understood why people find it so essential to know how many instances of something are running. I couldn't care less if I had one, two, or fifteen instances of visual studio running. I've never found the XP/Vista taskbar to be useful for enabling me to see how many instances of Explorer I have open, and consequently never experienced any 'unwieldiness' with the Windows 7 taskbar because I can't instantly see it. I simply do not care, and I don't understand why others feel that they need to have that kind of information available instantly.
    I guess it's a by product of the days when there wasn't a great deal of RAM and 64 bit systems.

    When XP came out, and you had Visual Studio and were developing ASP.NET websites, then the 512 RAM that came as standard wasn't a lot, added to the fact that your graphics card usually used 128MB of it anyway.

     I found that limiting any amount of instances of programs decreased build times significantly. This, for instance, is why I always go into MSCONFIG and disable any services that are not Microsoft - Windows 7 is brilliant here - and have only my Graphics card service, and in start up programs I only have anti-virus (don't run this all the time in Vista anyway). If you check this out Adobe, Google and all these people like to add services that I don't need or want.

    The-long-and-the-short-of-it is, I tend to have very few programs or services running at any given time, which results in a fast machine. The Windows 7 task bar assumes that I am unaware of the processes that are running, and has a way of making me navigate my Windows in a way I never thought I'd ever see happen.

    The task bar will be improved upon in future versions, but in it's present state, it really is a case of the Emperors New Clothes.

  • I downgraded to Vista

    Sven Groot said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*

    Yes they are, it's the other two options in the "Taskbar buttons" dropdown.

    EDIT: "Combine when full", combined with "Use small icons" ends up looking like this:


    Two instances of Visual Studio, as you specified. Not so different from Vista, but you still get larger previews, jump lists, Aero peek, etc.
    Ahh... I see! All that's left is to bring back quick launch back where it belongs.

    I am quite pleased that this option is available, because, hitherto, I do not see the new Windows 7 task bar making me more productive, or making my life easier. I have learnt to use the Vista explorer now, but an up folder like XP was and is still far easier to use. The task bar is like a keyboard for me, and changing it serves no purpose.

    In the image above you have shown, it's not just the ease of flicking from one Visual Studio instance to the other, it's the fact that I know I have two instances running, without having to perform any hovering at all, how simple is that? After a while using Windows 7 your task bar becomes unwieldy because you don't know how many instances of anything are running without a hover, hover, hover. when an necessary bother?

    Really, the more I write about this, the more I am perplexed that most of you guys find this hovering malarkey more enjoyable and useful than something as simple as this. The task bar hovering is limited to two instances of IE for example, and about 20 tabs. In my vista task bar I can open up far much more, but I know not to anyway. When I open up an instance of IE, each tab has an explanation of what the page contains so I know which page I need to go to, without any hovering.

     The Windows 7 task bar team have fixed a problem that did not exist, and hence did not need fixing.

  • VS2010 to use toolbars?

    Ion Todirel said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*
    random
    What would be the point?

    You cannot click on F5 or access any toolbar buttons win a collapsed ribbon (Step into, Step out etc) like you can in the Outlook image above.

    In the Outlook tool bar above, you have something analogous functionally to Visual Studio i.e. a handful of frequently used commands i.e. debug, step into etc.

    You would end up with the catastrophe that is the Windows 7 taskbar where you are adding more "mouse clicks" and "mouse hovers" rather than reducing them.

  • I downgraded to Vista

    Sven Groot said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*
    So, set the taskbar to "Combine when taskbar is full" or "Never combine" and it behaves pretty much exactly like Vista does.

    And again, you don't need to click on the taskbar button to get the previews, just hovering will do.
    It is too late now, as I am back to Vista SP1 where things work.

    The options you suggest are not in the task bar properties



    Hence are not easily discoverable. You get the feeling that (at present) the design team want everybody to use their new system, and by setting these options, then their work has gone to waste - which it has, because they have fixed a problem that did not need fixing.

    If you decide to redesign a keyboard, that is pretty much more than audacious, it is courageous, and in business, this is something you always want to be conservative about if not avoid.

    Channel 9 is not representative of your typical windows user, and sometimes peoples enthusiasm is a smokescreen for problems further down the road. Most Windows 7 beta testers are developers or enthusiasts, consequently are the least likely to complain, they like new things for the sake of being new (not all of them mind).

    Yes the glass is clearer, and you have fingerprint detection, the control of the background services stuff is cool but I am quite happy where I am (for now).


  • I downgraded to Vista

    Sven Groot said:

    Where's that extra click coming from? You can just hover on the buttons to get the window previews.

    For the graphics thing, you could try installing the Vista drivers instead. I did for my laptop (nVidia card) because of unbearable screen corruption issues with the beta drivers, and it works a charm.

    Whilst doing this tutorial yesterday my XAML was a little suspect, so I opened up the code sample, and had two instances of Visual Studio running. I needed to easily flick from one instance to the other so I could compare the code (not just copy and paste it - I needed to know what I had done wrong)

    It turns out the Windows 7 taskbar has doubled my work here, and I need to click on the Visual Studio icon, then hover over the instance I need and then select it. In Vista and previous, I just click the instance in the taskbar and the Show() for that form is invoked. God I really do not like the new taskbar. In some cases you save keystrokes, in others it doubles them, so no you have not done a completely amazing job with this new feature. You certainly need to allow for a user to decide to have 2 instances of a program running the the taskbar if they should so choose.

    You have assumed that all users are foolish, and open up x amounts of their web browser and do not know how many pages or processes they are running. You are wrong here, most people can control their processes and you have fixed a problem that did not need fixing, and you are now trying to persuade everybody that there was a huge problem in the task bar - it has worked fine for the last 15 years.

    I have also found windows media player to be useless, freezing my videos frequently, and I cannot even play a few mp3's without having to restart my computer. I don't know why you did not releases this like Internet Explorer so you could have the Vista people testing it as well, more polish and reliability here please.

    I have a video presentation I needed to send to a business to be viewed by senior management. Nero 9 (the trial) blue screened at least once each time I tried to burn a CD, but the biggest issue was that I did not know whether the presentation would be viewable as it had been burned on beta software. I simply had to eradicate this doubt hence Vista is now back on the main machine.

    I am a blogger and found that my favourite code snippet inserter did not work as the formatting is all wrong. It worked out OK though, because I now post the code as pure HTML. That is an excellent Visual Studio add in.

    I also have a very popular article on my blog that I just could not get to work. When you are writing stuff for your blog, you need to be at least sure that "it works on my machine". I have gone back to Vista because I need predictable and stable software more that I had ever realised. The code that did not work (i.e. WCF) worked straight away in Vista.

    The upshot is that the Win 7 beta says "for testing purposes only", even though it had been touted at pretty stable. I also feel a little ambivalent about testing software for someone that I am ultimately going to have to fork out a lot of money for. You win because I point out all the bugs and I am a pretty good and thorough tester, what do I get in return? At times I do actually end up spending quite a lot of time researching bugs etc. but loathe the fact that I don't even get a free license for all my efforts, so I probably will not be testing any major software products from Microsoft in the future because of this. You are in the business of making money from high quality software, why should I work for you for free?

    I know I may come across as sounding anti-Microsoft at times though I am not, but I am a paying customer at the end of the day, why you expect that I should work for you like an automaton leaves me dumbfounded? I know a number of niners are fanbois with aspirations for working for the mother ship, and given the opportunity I probably would take up the offer, but my bread and butter is in no way financed by Microsoft, so I can afford to take the stance I do. I already spend pretty much all my life working on software that supports your operating systems, server technologies, programming languages et al

    Eeven more that I should complain about things like the taskbar that I detest. You have fixed a problem, that did not need fixing.

  • VS2010 to use toolbars?

    Ion Todirel said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*
    I'm not so sure about it taking so much space, minimized it could take less than a row of toolbars + main menu, of the current implementation together
    On a 19'' wide-screen monitor, with a Ribbon and Windows 7 Task bar, you have considerably less space. This for instance is why you don't have it in the front page of Outlook 2007, but is available in your Text editor for Email, Appointments, Tasks etc.

  • I downgraded to Vista

    I have done exactly the same.

     I wrote the post here on 9, but was in two minds whether to post it and saved it in notepad. I will post it later, when I have access to it.

  • Hotmail? Worst webmail ever...

    Surely everybody is now using live essentials? Failing that, there there is the Outlook Connector as well.

    I scarcely ever use a web browser to access my mail, especially as I detest adverts.