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Similar hopes were raised and squashed with all the recent Microsoft blunders. "Why are you making such a huge deal about the forced start screen? Windows 8 is still in beta, do you think they will risk alienating all these desktop users?" ...

And the recent backtracks still resulted in worse deals than the previous offerings, take the Office 2013 licensing for example: They have backtracked from the one-computer-forever thing, but the price hike (Office 2013 installable only one PC, instead of three in the previous version) is still in place. Office 365 is no true successor to the old licensing and often times more expensive in the long run than the old scheme.

I would be very surprised if the Xbox One games would be less pricey than the P4 equivalents. DRM led usually to the opposite direction, even in the case of Steam: Bargain bin deals at retailers for PC games were (often still are) usually cheaper than the Steam deals.

And even today, boxed games are often cheaper on Amazon than their download-only equivalents on Steam, especially older titles, and I am not even talking about the second-hand resellers there.

59 minutes ago, Jaz wrote

If any of this: http://pastebin.com/uCmdh9jB is true, then I can see where Microsoft are going and I like the story.

There is nothing in there that hasn't been answered a dozen times on the internet and on this thread.

Even on Neowin, the friendliest site to Microsoft, there are lots people who see through it call it BS in the comments, and we're talking about Neowin here!

http://www.neowin.net/news/anonymous-xbox-engineer-explains-drm-and-microsofts-xbox-one-intentions

If this doesn't even convince the Neowin people...

Post from another blog covering most of the Steam-arguments of the pastebin-guy (basically a condensed version of what I've said here before):

I bet MS can't believe the furore they've created with the Xbox 1.

Take the used games restrictions for example. The Official PlayStation Used Game Instructional Video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA has had 10 million views and 80,000 comments, the Reddit community is up in arms, and Google searches for xbox news were overwhelmingly negative.

I think their line of reasoning with used games was that Steam on the PC was successful and didn't allow used games, so why not make more money by restricting this? With every disk sold hey make a profit. They are also in bed with EA who probably encouraged them. Also, if they allowed game disks to be fully installed to the console, and played without a disk in the caddy, this was a natural conclusion, as game disks merely became means of transferring data, not a symbol of ownership.

What they forgot about is:

(A) Console game disks have traditionally been transferable, breaking this tradition was dangerous for consumer opinion. Strangely, people do like to sell, borrow and lend games easily.

(B) Steam is very different, as it has traditionally not used install disks, although some PC game DVDs now require Steam. Also, the PC is an open platform, not curated by MS, so Steam is a choice rather than a necessity, although it may be required for some games. [there are also direct Steam-competitors on the platform: Origin, Gog etc.]  There has been a slow transition to Steam-type DRM. There is a large tradition of discounting with Steam. There is a lot of trust with Steam. There are multiple vendors for downloads, even if Steam DRM is required. On the PC piracy is easier if you hate Steam DRM. People do not buy PCs mainly to play games. And other factors I've probably missed.

(C) Console games have traditionally been more expensive than the PC, but this factored in the possibility of resale. Would the cost of game disks of the xbox one be lowered? Doesn't seem likely in the short run.

And all this is merely about used games. They have made many other poor decisions, e.g. online required, kinect required, higher cost, regional restrictions, poor name, uninspiring design, poor conference presentation, disdain for backward compatibility, etc..  I still expect xbox one to be successful, but these type of decisions will cost them millions in sales.

1 day ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

If your powers of observation are so damn great then why don't you just short Microsoft?  Any dummy can complain about a company knowing that nobody really cares one way or the other.

But if you want us to take you seriously, Beer, jump back into the market and put some actual faith behind all of your blather.

Upset fanboy is upset.

Maybe I have done exactly that, how do you know I didn't?

Since posting the online credentials to my online bank account/depot would be a brainless insanity of the highest order (apart from the criminal insanity of it, banks can and do terminate your account for doing this), there is no way to prove that.

If I say I won't short Microsoft, you would say I don't stick to my guns, if I say I did it, you would say I lie. If I would post a screenshot of the depot, you would probably say it's photoshopped or manipulated (many banks offer a demo account with toy money, - otherwise it looks like a real account. So it's easy to fabricate such a screenshot). Even a video recording would prove nothing, since there are demo accounts that require a custom pre-registered login - they look exactly like real accounts but still operate with toy money too. And exactly this is apparently your modus operandi, as we can see with the beer-accusation, where you dismissed my evidence against your claim and escalated the accusation even further. And you continue to dismiss it, even though I've said that the admins are free to compare the IP-addresses. So of course you would play the same game here.

It's an unwinnable pseudo-challenge.

If you're out of arguments or have nothing else to say, then just leave the thread, but don't come up with preschool-shenanigans to stifle discussion.

@cbae:

There are two possibilities about the Peter Moore topic:

1. He says the truth: That would explain why Sony and Nintendo are without these ridiculous DRM schemes.

2. EA and other publishers were the instigators behind all this, but if true, how come Sony was able to resist it? How stupid was Microsoft not to envision the backlash, especially after all these forewarnings? The obvious conclusion is that Sony said no, while Microsoft sold out their users without hesitation.

In any case, EA and Sony are apparently able to notice when the sh*t hits the fan and are able to react to customer wishes, while "NuMicrosoft" proves yet again, that it would rather bulldozer another once loyal customer base and create yet another backlash.

1 hour ago, ScanIAm wrote

Outside of these forums, your lame attempts at trolling would have had you banned.

The far more important thing is that outside these forums the Xbone is toast. It's the worst product reception of any kind that I can remember.

It apparently even caused partners like EA to publically backtrack.

1 hour ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

That would not be the first time that you had a conversation with yourself.

Nice copout. No one who would have read the linked thread would sanely believe that the posts from beerinbelgium and me were coming from the same person (especially on such a boring non-flamey topic).

Unless of course you're out of arguments and fishing for lame ad-hominems.

1 hour ago, ScanIAm wrote

But, this, friends, is how I know it's Beer.  His pattern is as it always is.  He's prickly for a while, then continues to escalate until his spittle-flecked ranting reaches this level of discourse 

The admins have my blessing to compare the IP-addresses of beer and me and publically post the results if it would make you happy.

1 hour ago, cbae wrote

*snip*

If you believe Peter Moore, I have a bridge to sell you. Let's see how many of his titles opt-out of charging the pre-owned game fee.

I believe it, because it fits into the "NuMicrosoft" pattern of the last two years.

By the way, interesting comment on TheVerge (grain of salt though):

This matches up with the pre-E3 leak though. A user on NeoGAF (one that's had a stellar track record for these things in the past) leaked a ton of stuff about the MS conference, and claimed that no publishers had tried to strong-arm MS into their heavy DRM system, but that it was MS that had designed the system and then approached publishers with it. Everything else in the leak came to fruition as far as I know, so I'm inclined to believe this.

8 minutes ago, DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

Surprise surprise... First Microsoft points the finger at publishers and now the publishers point the finger right back: http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/11/4421506/ea-peter-moore-interview-e3-2013-online-pass-xbox-one

Oh my God!

Electronic Arts COO Peter Moore has said the company made no attempt to push Microsoft and Sony into implementing restrictions on used games in their next-generation consoles. "EA did not aggressively lobby for the platform holders to put some gating function in there to allow or disallow used games," Moore told Polygon at the E3 conference in Los Angeles.

"EA has never had a conversation, and I have been present at all of them, with all of the manufacturers, saying you must put a system in place that allows us to take a piece of the action or even stop it."

"I am on record as being a proponent of used games," says Moore. "I like the ecosystem. I like the fact that it's kept pricing at a good level for eight years. I like the fact that someone can buy a physical game and see some equity in that game. That keeps GameStop vibrant and they are a great launch and marketing partner for us."

EA has done more than most publishers to limit the proliferation of used games with its Online Pass system, which was recently scrapped. The program involved a single-use code, included with purchases of new games, that enabled online multiplayer and other content. Players who bought the game used could purchase an online pass to unlock the functionality.

Moore now calls Online Pass a "mistake," saying that it "wasn't consumer friendly" and caused trouble for legitimate customers. "The consumer's feedback was that this thing gets in the way of a good experience so let's get rid of it."

I am not yet braindead, and thus I can see that his current stance has probably far more to do with the outrage than being a genuine genuine conviction (huge kudos for listening to customers). But it shows again the utter insanity of the enablers on this forum.

Here we have Sony and EA [!!!!] backing the old common-sense system of the first sale doctrine, while a few forum fanboys are making cultists out of themselves just to back yet another NuMicrosoft clunker.

What I do believe Peter Moore though, is that this scheme was Microsoft's original idea all along:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/E3-Smackdown/b8bb71f4d7c5413eb516a1db009a0389

32 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

Entertainment isn't a car.  The act of selling a used copy of a game doesn't necessarily extract every memory of that game from your mind.

By your friend's logic, shouldn't you be able to buy a second hand movie ticket and watch the movie, too?

Yet I can buy a second-hand DVD without any problems.

Comparison fail.

A movie theater is an event - visiting it causes costs -  the electricity needs to be paid, the employees. The employed janitors need to clean your seat after the visit.. A game DVD (or a book, a film DVD, a music CD) is a product has been already made and paid for. There are no further expenses for the vendor if the owner of the DVD changes. And in opposite to piracy, there is no mass-replication of the goods and no creation of a free blackmarket. Putting second-hand games into the same category as piracy is the pinnacle of brazenness spitefulness.

And seriously, outside of this forum, you would be laughed out loud for even making these inane comparisons just to make your favourite anonymous conglomerate look good. You seem to have no frigging idea how Flat Earth Society-like your comments on this topic appear to outsiders of this little parlor. If the difference of the extreme public reactions to the PS4 and the Xbone doesn't serve as a clue-bat to you, then all reason is lost. And I know that many of you apologists would be first ones to scream bloody murder at the same scheme, if it weren't jolly Microsoft invoking the tech dystopia and expecting that the sheep gobble it all up.

If f*cking Sony shows more common-sense towards customers than you, then a mindset-calibration is long overdue.

22 minutes ago, ScanIAm wrote

*snip*

He was already banned back when he was named Beer28... 

Nope.