Comment Feed for Channel 9 - Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming http://media.ch9.ms/ch9/b0b0/86dd3553-2a43-44c6-a875-6da10055b0b0/AndreiHerbScottCB2012C9Interview_220.jpg Channel 9 - Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Channel 9 was invited to this year's C++ and Beyond to film some sessions (that will appear on C9 over the coming months!) and have a chat with the "Big Three": Andrei Alexandrescu, Scott Meyers, and Herb Sutter. If you are a C++ programmer, then you know these names very well. If you've not heard of C++ and Beyond, well, put it down as a must-attend event (let's hope they do it again in 2013!). You can see material from last year's event here.At the end of day 2, Andrei, Herb and Scott graciously agreed to spend some time discussing various modern C++ topics and, even better, answering questions from the community. In fact, the questions from Niners (and a conversation on reddit/r/cpp) drove the conversation. Huge thanks to Andrei, Herb, and Scott for their time and wisdom. Thanks, too, to the Niners who asked great questions!Here's what happened: [00:00] Themes for C++ in 2012 and beyond (and C++ and Beyond 2012)[07:00] C++11 Efficiency and Concurrency/Parallelism (Standardization)[12:12] dot_tom asks: When can we expect standardized modern libraries like, XML, File system, Web Services?[15:00] ZippyV asks: Standardized modern libraries: What has the response been? Any unexpected requests?[17:17] static if[26:26] Matt_PD asks: Future of template metaprogramming? Standardizing static loops?[40:07] More on template metaprogramming (and static if and enable_if)...[50:05] async/await language feature in C++ would be nice, C&B 2013? en Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:04:38 GMT Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:04:38 GMT Rev9 Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Wonderful! I've been waiting for the C++ and Beyond 2012 coverage. Very happy to see it here!

posted by tomkirbygreen

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811583196398457 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:05:19 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811583196398457 tomkirbygreen Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming @dot_tom: And your question was answered Smiley Thanks for asking it!

C

posted by Charles

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811599346045939 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:32:14 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811599346045939 Charles Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming What about header files?  Will they always be required? I suppose you could say the editor should just automatically generate the header, but then there is the requirement to include the header in the .cpp file. Anyway, having to duplicate the definition of a function in the .h and .cpp files really slows me down when coding C++. It also impacts code organization. VC++ 2012 allows filters to organize code, but that is not as good as using folders in C#. In C# I have each class in its own source file, where the name of the source file is the name of the class. Then the source files are organized in a hierarchy of folders and sub folders. I try to do roughly the same in c++ projects, but class declarations are still consolidated in a single .h files. Which results in a single .h file and multiple .cpp files, which requires more organizational thought to assign meaningful file names, and makes it harder to find the file in solution explorer that I need to edit.

 

posted by SteveRichter

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811620001976684 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:06:40 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811620001976684 SteveRichter Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Will the ^ syntax used in c++ WinRT apps be enabled for all windows apps? I assume the hat syntax encapsulates some sort of automatic implementation of smart pointers. It looks like a feature I would like to use.

 

posted by SteveRichter

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811623238882745 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:12:03 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811623238882745 SteveRichter Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming
---
import std.stdio, std.typetuple;
void main() {
foreach (T; TypeTuple!(int, float, string)) {
writeln(T.stringof);
}
}
---

posted by David Nadlinger

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811672202470170 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:33:40 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811672202470170 David Nadlinger Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming shhh.....what was that special announcement by herb again ? Devil

posted by felix9

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811673647214171 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:36:04 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811673647214171 felix9 Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming David: You're of course right. By and large I'm trying to minimize mentions of D in C++ contexts because it's as unfair as bringing a machine gun to a knife fight.

posted by andrei_alexandrescu

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811706621276692 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:31:02 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811706621276692 andrei_alexandrescu Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Nice discussion, thanks for making it available.

posted by Moondevil

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811714145752499 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:43:34 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811714145752499 Moondevil Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming posted by Cairn

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811769972368847 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:16:37 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811769972368847 Cairn Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming @Cairn: Yes: http://www.agner.org/optimize/optimizing_cpp.pdf & http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manuals.

posted by Charles

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811772581440457 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:20:58 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811772581440457 Charles Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Thanks for passing on the (admittedly long-winded) question, Charles!
And, of course, thanks for the insightful answers from all! Smiley

In particular, Andrei's sentiments are quite compatible to mine here -- for instance, the fact that more metaprogramming facilities go hand in hand with the greater use of (and the need for) the supporting infrastructure (or "a web of supporting facilities in the language and in the std. lib.," as in CTFE in the tangent function values compile-time tabulation example). That's also why I'm looking into this area with a renewed interest now, given C++11's progress -- in fact, constexpr, also mentioned in the discussion, is one of the new C++11 features I'm most happy about in this context and I'm already thinking of it as being a part of this very supporting infrastructure Smiley

In particular, CTFE (D) seems to be one of the requirements for the aforementioned example and constexpr (C++11) seems to provide just that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compile_time_function_execution

// Incidentally, constexpr being another form of compile-time language is also a very good point, there are already some nice examples out there illustrating the code simplification (relative to C++03 TMP) it allows for: http://kaizer.se/wiki/log/post/C++_constexpr/ & http://kaizer.se/wiki/log/post/C++_constexpr_foldr/

Charles has already linked to the questions thread with the link to Agner's example so I won't spam here again, but can also add Compile-Time Language (CTL) available in High Level Assembly (HLA) as another illustration:
http://www.phatcode.net/res/260/files/html/HLACompileTimeLanguagea3.html#999072
// See also 8.3 Writing Compile-Time "Programs": http://www.phatcode.net/res/260/files/html/Macros2.html#1009074

I think the point on making the language available for everyone ("language should be comphrehensible and usable for 100% of its users") is also a great point which I fully agree with. In fact, that's an important motivating factor -- ideally TMP should *not* be a feature just for the "select few" and I think we agree that it's more a result of a historical coincidence in the case of TMP rather than an inherent difficulty of TMP itself. Hence, Herb's and Scott's points (as in the worries about repelled-not-attracted or run-screaming reactions ;]) are fully and well taken (it's also true TMP is indeed just one area of C++ and not in quite as widespread use as the others). At the same time, simplifying the syntax / removing the awkwardness are directly meant to address this exact point Smiley In other words, this is how I view the role of extensions like "static_if" (instead of hand-crafted template specialization equivalent) or, say, "static_while" (instead of, say, hand-crafted recursive template instantiation equivalent) -- similarly to "constexpr", they allow to achieve what's already (at least theoretically / in some cases) possible, but do it in a natural fashion providing accessibility and ease of use to a wider base of developers.

posted by Matt_PD

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811812702057142 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:27:50 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811812702057142 Matt_PD Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Why so long to produce an XML library? Excuse me if I do not understand the context of the issue. Why would it take years to code the equivalent of LINQ to XML in C++?

 

 

posted by SteveRichter

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811840960974249 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 22:14:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811840960974249 SteveRichter Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Why is this native movement ONLY for the client?

Where is a native server framework? All of the server frameworks that MS offers are managed, ASP.Net Webform, MVC, and on it goes.

How is it possible that native, which is only needed in a few cases on the client, but massively needed on the server where every cycle counts, is nonexistant?

posted by samcov

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811875169444335 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:11:56 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811875169444335 samcov Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming

, Matt_PD wrote

Hence, Herb's and Scott's points (as in the worries about repelled-not-attracted or run-screaming reactions ;]) are fully and well taken (it's also true TMP is indeed just one area of C++ and not in quite as widespread use as the others). At the same time, simplifying the syntax / removing the awkwardness are directly meant to address this exact point

Exactly. I'd say people run screaming not because they fear metaprogramming, but because of the unbearable awkwardness of advanced C++ template metaprogramming.

posted by Novox

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811897761340718 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:49:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811897761340718 Novox Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming @Novox: Is there some other form of metaprogramming in C++?
C

posted by Charles

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811984119074638 Wed, 22 Aug 2012 02:13:31 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811984119074638 Charles Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming

, andrei_alex​andrescu wrote

David: You're of course right. By and large I'm trying to minimize mentions of D in C++ contexts because it's as unfair as bringing a machine gun to a knife fight.



Destroy! Smiley

C

posted by Charles

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811984679120625 Wed, 22 Aug 2012 02:14:27 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634811984679120625 Charles Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming

, Charles wrote

@Novox: Is there some other form of metaprogramming in C++?
C

That's the point: No, there isn't (well, if you ignore C macros, which are metaprograms). Herb is certainly right that currently the use of metaprogramming in C++ is limited to an Elite Priesthood™, but I do not believe that the sole reason is metaprogramming per se or its limited usefulness, but the fact that C++ does not yet have proper support for metaprogramming. And that's why a language extension like "static if" might be a valuable addition to the language: It could make metaprogramming in C++ more accessible, maybe even user-friendly.

posted by Novox

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812370988235596 Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:58:18 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812370988235596 Novox Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming
I'm not remotely a big metaprogramming user, but I don't think even the experts would argue against the fact that it needs to be a lot easier.

Andrei is right that we need to make better usage of the hardware we already have. Sure, C++11 features will help, rvalue references, constexpr etc. but times have moved on. "Modern C++ Design" was published in 2001! It is not unreasonable to at least be planning to radically move the state of the art forward. Who genuinely wants to be stuck forever in the 1970s?

posted by Ben Hanson

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812381232489243 Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:15:23 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812381232489243 Ben Hanson Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming He talked in the context of speeding up compilation.

However I had a different need for "standard" precompiled headers.

The idea is that if we have "standard" precompiled headers which can be explicitly included like header files, we can release template libraries in binary form in the same way as we release dlls or static libs. (i.e. without giving out source code).

posted by Jackson

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812417937979099 Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:16:33 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634812417937979099 Jackson Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Let's also not forget that up until now, a lot of the benefit of metaprogramming has been taken by ever increasingly clever compile-time optimisations.

For example

if(sizeof(void*) == 4)
  Do_X86()
else if(sizeof(void*) == 8 )
  Do_X64()

behaves as a static-if in Visual Studio's release builds, because the compiler is smart enough to see that the condition can be determined at compile-time and the unused branch can be removed.

Similarly (3 * foo) typically becomes ((foo << 1) + foo) in release builds to avoid the multiply - something that other programming languages might try and do by having a meta-programming multiply_by_constant that is clever enough to know tricks to avoid performing multiplies on the hardware.

Meta-programming is certainly interesting from a language perspective, but without a good grounding in compiler theory, it's easy to overstate its important from a performance perspective.

posted by evildictaitor

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634814024768635819 Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:54:36 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634814024768635819 evildictaitor Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming posted by Christian Semmler

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634814264269214796 Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:33:46 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634814264269214796 Christian Semmler Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming posted by Ben Hanson

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634816019704808344 Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:19:30 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634816019704808344 Ben Hanson Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming Hi Charles, is there a schedule for posting other session videos from C++ and Beyond 2012? I'm particularly keen to see Andrei's presentation about high perf C++.

posted by tomkirbygreen

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634829494652165637 Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:37:45 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634829494652165637 tomkirbygreen Re: Alexandrescu, Meyers, Sutter: On Static If, C++11 in 2012, Modern Libraries, and Metaprogramming @dot_tom: Hi Tom!

Actually, that specific talk will not be published on Channel 9 (or anywhere else for that matter, I believe).

The rough "schedule" is:

up next: Ask Us Anything Panel
then Scott Meyers Session (Universal References)
then Andrei Session (Systematic Error Handling in C++)
then Herb Session (You don't know _ about _)
then Herb Session (Concurrency and Parallelism)
then Herb Session (Memory Model P1)
then Herb Session (Memory Model P2)
then Convincing Your Boss (to move to C++11) Panel

Something like that... Sorry for not being specific (no exact dates). There will be great content here from this event, but we need to be patient (I mean, I'm ready to ship it all, but that's not going to happen...).

C

posted by Charles

]]> http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634835227170403717 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:51:57 GMT http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Alexandrescu-Meyers-Sutter-On-Static-If-C11-in-2012-Modern-Libraries-and-Metaprogramming#c634835227170403717 Charles