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The Channel 9 beta has been updated...

I know you've heard it before, but we are heading down the final path to ship.... really we are Smiley

As part of that path, we've been working hard for the past few months focused on making sure that our new code base meets the expectations of you folk, the Niners. What has that meant? Well, it meant new features of course, but it also meant extending some of our existing code to make it more enjoyable for how people use Channel 9... even modifying our initial ideas around the UI and the UX to make it both an improvement and familiar.

That is probably already enough talk for most people, so for all of those folks ... please feel free to jump over to the beta (http://beta.channel9.msdn.com), check it out, and provide feedback.

I do want to explain what is new/improved, what is missing and what are known beta issues that we are planning to fix in the short term. We'll go through these features/differences in an upcoming dev diary, but for now here it is in basic text form.

What's New/Improved

Browser/Standards compatibility

  • Nearly identical experience across IE and FF and the site is very usable in Opera and Safari
  • Font scaling (make your text size larger/smaller in your browser and the site stays usable and looking good) is now possible

Videos

  • Support for multiple video and audio formats (MP4, Zune formatted WMV, High Quality WMV, Regular WMV, WMA and MP3) with corresponding RSS feeds for use with aggregators including Zune and iTunes
  • Silverlight Player with an available iFrame for inclusion in other web sites
  • The ability to tell people about your favorite videos using a direct post to Facebook, Digg or Deli.cio.us link

Forums/Commenting

  • Asynchronous (AJAX) paging through comments on videos, threads in the forums and more
  • New "Reply To" model that automatically displays the comment you are replying to hooked up to your comment
  • New Editor with broad browser support

User Submitted content (wiki/sandbox)

  • Added commenting to wiki pages
  • Async history browsing and editing
  • New syntax matching codeplex's wiki syntax
  • Tagging support added to the Sandbox, so that uploaded samples can be categorized (think C#, Web, WPF)

What's Missing/Coming Soon

  • "Recent Changes" pages/feeds in the wiki are no longer available (will return)
  • "Compare with previous" no longer available (will return)
  • IE 6 support has issues, mostly around our extensive use of transparent PNGs Smiley
  • Profiles are really lacking compared to how they are in the current C9 (some improvements planned, will plan more based on your feedback!).
  • Watched Threads is gone.
  • User info (blog, web site, caption) on posts is gone, but will come back later in some form of quick info pop-up.
  • No Emoticons in the editor (coming soon)
  • No Poll
  • No Quote option for replying

Note: The beta itself is missing some things just because it is a beta, including Live ID sign-in... and our data isn't anywhere near up-to-date between the live and beta sites.

I'm sure there is more, but please check it out now and let us know what you think. There is a feedback forum (http://beta.channel9.msdn.com/forums/feedback) on the new site, but I've also created a page for the beta on uservoice.com, you can check it out here http://channel9.uservoice.com and you can use that site to submit comments, ideas, and to vote on other people's feedback.

Follow the Discussion

  • Matthew van EerdeMatthew van Eerde AKA Maurits
    > No Quote option for replying

    Say what?
  • Christian Liensbergerlittleguru <3 Seattle
    Looks great... Smiley Easy to find myself after browsing c8 Big Smile

    Suggestion: bigger avatars would also be handy... they are very small by default.
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    I love the asynchronous pagin for videos.
  • tsilbSlackmasterK This Space ​Intentional​ly Left Blank
    Ooh, it seems to load faster than my last visit to the beta (IMHO the biggest issue it had a couple months ago). 

    So are the transparent PNGs being used as spacers? If so, why?
  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change
    I love the look and feel. Great balance between OldSchool and modern design. There of course a few bugs and I'll send these directly to the KFA team.

    Awesome work Duncan and team. Woohoo!!!!!
    C
  • figuerresfiguerres ???
    aside from some errors getting pages (it's beta so I expect problems)

    overall I like how it looks and loads content.


    feature question:

    will  we have / can we get a "threads I have posted on" list ?

    sometimes I want to check back on a thread to see if new posts are there to read / follow up.

    also a variation on that:

    threads I have posted to that have new posts in the last {N Days|N Weeks}

    I do not recall if this was in the plans or not.

    very clean, I like "Simple"
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!!

    haha just kidding.  Smiley

    looks interesting so far

    was pretty slow though..

    it actually not working right now as i wanted to go check out the editor but i saw main page and forum pages..

    interesting for first impression

    i liked the rss angled thing.. that c9guy is back, that colours are consistant, i even didnt mind that Grandmas chesterfield pattern.. although a different BG option or 3 might be nice.

    Glad the gold is back on the bars in the forum pages.. looks sort of stealy ..

    Of the top of my head id say the flyouts are hard to distinguish from the page (drop shadow png behind each? .. and to watch distances between text and margins (seems not the same in areas)

    Cant wait to check out the editor.

    bigger avatars!

    good work Smiley


    edit: flippin g__damn HOORAY the editor is back! Smiley

    ..id ..love small rounded corners on top of forums tho... seems to ridgid Tongue Out

    edit2:  much faster now - but CH initial load is sort of slow
  • Matthew van EerdeMatthew van Eerde AKA Maurits
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation


  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.

    jamie wrote:
    was pretty slow though..


    Same here, it often takes a couple of seconds before the spinning load thing shows up, and then it takes a few seconds before the actual content appears.

    The RSS icon is pretty cool.

     

    How do you sign in with a Live ID? I have no idea what my account password is.

  • RowanRowan Look, no errors.
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    I'm using Firefox 3 so I can't see any content either.

    Please learn how to sniff out browsers correctly!
  • great job! looking better with every day but there is still a lot of work to be done
  • LaBombaLaBomba Summer
    Why does C9 have to look like On10? Can't you keep the current look of the forums?

    Edit: Need bigger avatars. The pages seem to load quite often at dial-up speeds.

    I'd just hope to see more homage to the current look of the C9 forums. It seems too much space on the outside, make everything bigger in the middle, just my 2 cents.




  • YearOfTheLinuxDesktopYearOfThe​LinuxDesktop Seven of Niner! Resistance is Futile!
    SlackmasterK wrote:
    Ooh, it seems to load faster than my last visit to the beta (IMHO the biggest issue it had a couple months ago). 

    So are the transparent PNGs being used as spacers? If so, why?


    because a 6.0 browser I don't want to name doesn't understand the min-width css property Sad

    by the way that red+orange background color is too strong, it burns my eyes [C]!
  • YearOfTheLinuxDesktopYearOfThe​LinuxDesktop Seven of Niner! Resistance is Futile!
    Rowan wrote:
    

    I'm using Firefox 3 so I can't see any content either.

    Please learn how to sniff out browsers correctly!


    I use firefox 3 RC1 and the thread list works fine
  • RowanRowan Look, no errors.
    YearOfTheLinuxDesktop wrote:
    
    Rowan wrote:
    

    I'm using Firefox 3 so I can't see any content either.

    Please learn how to sniff out browsers correctly!


    I use firefox 3 RC1 and the thread list works fine


    What's the UA string for the RC? I'm using a nightly.

    Because this is on the C9 beta:

    if(navigator.userAgent.indexOf(" Firefox/")>-1){Sys.Browser.agent=Sys.Browser.Firefox;

    That should probably be something like:

    if(navigator.userAgent.indexOf(" Gecko/")>-1)
  • YearOfTheLinuxDesktopYearOfThe​LinuxDesktop Seven of Niner! Resistance is Futile!
    Rowan wrote:
    

    What's the UA string for the RC? I'm using a nightly.

    Because this is on the C9 beta:

    if(navigator.userAgent.indexOf(" Firefox/")>-1){Sys.Browser.agent=Sys.Browser.Firefox;

    That should probably be something like:

    if(navigator.userAgent.indexOf(" Gecko/")>-1)


    User-Agent=Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9) Gecko/2008051206 Firefox/3.0
  • JonathonWCannot​Resolve​Symbol Microsoft: Who do you want to execute today?
    Rowan wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    I'm using Firefox 3 so I can't see any content either.

    Please learn how to sniff out browsers correctly!


    Yes--  C9 team, please sniff for Gecko and the Mozilla version, not Firefox!!

    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Browser_Detection_and_Cross_Browser_Support


    (from yet another user of FF nightly builds, which identify themselves as Minefield, not Firefox)
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    re:

    Debug.WriteLine()

    could you do this ...UN-web2.0?
    ie;




just seems a sea of text without any emphasis on thread title and time?
  • DCMonkeyDCMonkey What?!?
    I'm not sure about this async/AJAX forum loading thing. I imagine performance will get better when the new c9 is moved to the "real servers", but then I go over to on10 (where they've only got 2 pages of posts), which already appears to have async forum loading, and I find the experience excruciatingly slow compared to today's Coffeehouse (at least most days). And even with better performance, I think seeing that progress animation makes it feel slower than it really is, especially when coming to the forum page 1 from elsewhere.


    Edit: Of course it doesn't help that the new forum page appears to be about 100KB not even counting the actual forum topic data, whereas the current c9 home page is about 35KB


  • Any chance you guys could destroy or rename this account? http://channel9.msdn.com/Niners/Manip

    I don't have access to it and can't reset it either. So I just want to start it again.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    ask if you can just go back to manip?  (never got the uni thing)
    ..maybe they could ..merge? the accounts to Manip?

    edit: oh ya.. that would take...5 minutes..  Tongue Out


    Back to site... i figured out whats bugging me...

    IT'S THIS.   WHY ARE ALL THE TOP NAV LINKS IN CAPITALS AND ALL THE SUB FLYOUT LINKS IN CAPITALS

    ?

    its much ..."nicer" lowercase  (harp sound)

    Media    Wiki    Forums    /  Coffeehouse

    not MEDIA FORUMS WIKI COFFEEHOUSE YOU GET OUT!  Mad
  • LaBombaLaBomba Summer
    Wait a minute, when you sign-up with Channel 9 and give them an email address, you can't change that email I believe unless the C9 team does it for you....

    ie. Why don't you just go to forgot my password? http://channel9.msdn.com/User/EmailForgottenPassword.aspx

    Unless you've lost the email address as well...in which case the C9 team should be able to change the email to your current one, and viola problem solved, Duncan?

    PS. Jamie re: Uni = University
  • You can&#39;t handle my nameKoogle I'm a Terminator - Astalavista, Vis7a!
    the orange texture header is good.. but having it fade to grey? meh

    also MMB clicking on links thread to open them in a new tab only input half the url address ie: /forums/Coffeehouse/262264-Disturbing-Vista-SP1-Video/

    instead of http://beta.channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/262264-Disturbing-Vista-SP1-Video/

    shift+rmb on a link does work though

    the AJAX stuff is abit meh aswel.. say you go clicking past the thread view straight to an actual thread.. using the 'back' function in most browsers doesn't actually cache that last seen thread view content.. instead you gotta wait again for it to reget the info again,  its just stupid because....  like for another reason why is there no actual refresh button at the top of the forum thread views.. that just refreshes the thread content directly... instead of you having to refresh the whole page..  you'd think the reason for adding this ajax syncing stuff was so that people weren't refreshing the whole page content and yet the one thing like adding an actual 'refresh' button isn't included.
     
    maybe the AJAX stuff is good on your end hooked on nice fast connection directly to the db, but imho its just retarded and ofc no browser has yet to bring the user any real control of these pesky setups same with flash and even more so silverlight

    and my favourite mouse gestures for going to next/previous pages the quick way doesn't work anymore either because of this retarded ajax page setup where there are no links that the plugin can look for like 'Next Page', 'Next', etc ...

    ultimate fail
  • LaBombaLaBomba Summer
    jamie wrote:
    
    LaBomba wrote:
    

    university..



    ah.  but manip is still short for manipulate ..correct?


    Ummm...no actually I believe that's his real name. Perplexed
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    LaBomba wrote:
    

    university..



    ah.  but manip is still short for manipulate ..correct?


    ok quick sum up (so far..)
    Anyone DISAGREE with the following?:


    - Re-consider avatar size (large option)

    - Re-consider SHOUTING CAPITALS (use current normal text)

    - Nice BG - but may be a bit much for some. Provide a few options under profile? ("Classic" bg?)

    - Drop menus disappear into page - add shadow - or darken color?

    - Check speed of coffeehouse loadtime

    - ensure back - forward work - and pg 1,2,3,4,5 etc

    - Consider rounding top corners of main forum holder - perhaps the sharp look is a tad jarring

    - on frontdoor CH box - place bold emphasis on new thread titles ( not jumble of text - see above example)


  • Jeff Sandquistjeffsand Inch by Inch
    great feedback Niners. really good stuff, please keep kicking the tires and posting what you dislike and what you like too.

    -jeff
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    news to me Smiley

    i used to think StaceyW was female (william stacey) and i thought H was Min's last initial.. but it was just Minh



    edit:  hey dshadle(?)...nice work! Smiley
  • Sven GrootSven Groot Don't worry... I'm a doctor.

    I just posted this in the beta forums but I'll repeat it here:
    I like the look, quoting should return, the avatars are still too small, and the add button should be disabled after it's clicked when making a post.

  • Sven Groot wrote:

    I like the look, quoting should return, the avatars are still too small, and the add button should be disabled after it's clicked when making a post.


    Or at least for a few seconds (4?) because sometimes the page really has frozen.
     
  • LaBomba wrote:
    e. Why don't you just go to forgot my password? http://channel9.msdn.com/User/EmailForgottenPassword.aspx


    Because I think both Manip and ManipUni' are registered to the same e-mail address and when I try and reset it ManipUni keeps getting the e-mail.

    Either that or I've completely forgotten which e-mail addressed I used.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    shadow sample



    *but use lowercase letters...


    ?
  • tsilbSlackmasterK This Space ​Intentional​ly Left Blank
    Please fix this:
    The page cannot be displayed because an internal server error has occurred.
  • JonathonWCannot​Resolve​Symbol Microsoft: Who do you want to execute today?
    Something about the site makes it so that you can't click any links at all in MobileSafari...  I'll go fire up (desktop) Safari in a bit and see if I can't find any leads for you.

    (And, no, my iPod isn't broken.  It's like there's an invisible overlay over the whole site.)
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    CannotResolveSymbol wrote:
    Something about the site makes it so that you can't click any links at all in MobileSafari...  I'll go fire up (desktop) Safari in a bit and see if I can't find any leads for you.

    (And, no, my iPod isn't broken.  It's like there's an invisible overlay over the whole site.)


    Thanks, I appreciate you putting the extra effort in to checking that... I have used the site from desktop safari, so I'm not sure if you'll see the same issue.
  • JonathonWCannot​Resolve​Symbol Microsoft: Who do you want to execute today?
    Duncanma wrote:
    
    CannotResolveSymbol wrote:
    Something about the site makes it so that you can't click any links at all in MobileSafari...  I'll go fire up (desktop) Safari in a bit and see if I can't find any leads for you.

    (And, no, my iPod isn't broken.  It's like there's an invisible overlay over the whole site.)


    Thanks, I appreciate you putting the extra effort in to checking that... I have used the site from desktop safari, so I'm not sure if you'll see the same issue.


    Yeah, I didn't see anything resembling the same problem in desktop safari.

    It would be nice if Apple gave developers a MobileSafari emulation mode or something, where you could use the Web Inspector to get more information like you can in desktop Safari (when it works...  seems to be broken on my computer).  You don't have any transparent <div>s hanging around that could cause this kind of thing, do you?  That's what it seemed like (the page scrolled fine, the communities bar still worked, just none of the links on the page worked).
  • Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    > No Quote option for replying

    Say what?
  • I like it, it's looking better than C9 now. The background is a little obnoxious tho.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    i really like the background...

    i can see that.. mega-thought that went into that

    at the same time - id never want to mandate something someone else doesnt like

    Options are good

    3 or 4 of them to be specific.


    (knowing me - knowing you - ah ha..)
    there is nothing we cant do!



    edit: <radio> ...and dutch, swiss day continues on C9... Smiley

  • JohnAskewJohnAskew 9 girl in pink sweater

    Another votes for quotes:
    Shadenfrueda for hasty posts must persist. Punish the foolhardy. We be Kangs!

    My favorite color is orange corduroy... I like the background but push it to the floor, no button color background washout, please. Orange rules.

    Whatever happened to the idea of having Visio capability so we can draw flowcharts and UML diagrams in Techoff?
    Wink

    Why is milk so expensive?

  • Tommy CarlierTommyCarlier Widen your gaze
    The site LOOKS great in Opera, but I can't click any of the buttons (new thread, reply, ...). Something weird is that each post has an EDIT and DELETE button. Does this mean everyone can edit and delete everyone else's posts Wink Another thing I noticed: when I'm at the Coffeehouse and I click on a thread, it loads the thread. When I click my browser's back-button, it goes back to the Coffeehouse, but reloads the content. This makes browsing the threads a lot slower.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    JohnAskew wrote:
    


    Why is milk so expensive?




    - i was going to Askew the same question...

    - because of the udder-ground market?

    - because they milk it for all its worth?

    - because they were in sweden?  moooo-den!


    bah... cant think of any more cow jokes

    un-revomooooo-tion


  • blowdartblowdart Peek-a-boo
    jamie wrote:
    


    bah... cant think of any more cow jokes




    Epic fail. You curd have tried herder. One can only assume that the fresian weather has stopped your brain.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    ... I heifer 'd that one before

    Tongue Out
  • blowdartblowdart Peek-a-boo
    jamie wrote:
    ... I heifer 'd that one before



    That's so bad it's not even amoosing. You're just trying to milk this for all it's worth, you need steered in the right direction.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    <serious sam> now that's alot of bull!  Wink
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.

    Reset Password

    We can't send you your password, but we can help you reset it.
    Provide the email address you registered with and an email will be sent to your address with your new password.
    System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. at EvNet.Services.Emails.SendForgotPassword(EvNetUser User, String email) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\Emails.cs:line 93 at EvNet.Services.MembershipProvider.Users.ResetPassword(String EmailAddress) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\MembershipProvider\Users.cs:line 760 at EvNet.Web.Pages.UserResetPassword.ResetButton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Web\Pages\UserResetPassword.cs:line 66


    Yikes. Tongue Out

    I got this when trying to reset my password. First I typed my email address and hit enter, after which the page posted back but nothing appeared to have happened. So then I clicked the 'reset password' button, and got this error.

    I still don't know my account password, by the way. I always log in using my Live ID. Am I overlooking it or is it just not possible in the beta? Or do you actually need to create new accounts?

    Edit:  apparently not. I get an HTTP 500 error when clicking 'register'.
  • Vesuviusvesuvius Count Orlock
    Splendid! I can't wait till it's live.
  • what will happen with the old channel9 once the new one is finished? I don't want to be forced to use the new one Embarassed
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    I'm not sure how it works now, but I'd appreciate an option to always display quotes, by the way.
  • Árni Gunnar RagnarssonZeus Why is the caption missing??
    The sign-in page (and some other pages) always crach my FF 2.0.0.14 ... Sad
  • Zeus wrote:
    The sign-in page (and some other pages) always crach my FF 2.0.0.14 ...


    I get the same problem (although not on the sign-in page). Channel 8 does the same thing...
  • Stevan VeselinovicSteve411 Me, all suited up!
    Love it!
  • harumscarumharumscarum out of memory
    I like simple so by default I have to like it. The only thing that I worry about is the ajax and having to wait. To me it seems posting back would be quicker then the current state.
  • tsilbSlackmasterK This Space ​Intentional​ly Left Blank
    Bas wrote:
    

    Reset Password

    We can't send you your password, but we can help you reset it.
    Provide the email address you registered with and an email will be sent to your address with your new password.
    System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. at EvNet.Services.Emails.SendForgotPassword(EvNetUser User, String email) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\Emails.cs:line 93 at EvNet.Services.MembershipProvider.Users.ResetPassword(String EmailAddress) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\MembershipProvider\Users.cs:line 760 at EvNet.Web.Pages.UserResetPassword.ResetButton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Web\Pages\UserResetPassword.cs:line 66


    So, did they forget to set CustomErrors="RemoteOnly", or was this in the interest of transparency? Smiley
  • blowdartblowdart Peek-a-boo
    Ajax is so last year. Where's the MVC rewrite?
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    blowdart wrote:
    Ajax is so last year. Where's the MVC rewrite?


    Funnay!!!1  Tongue Out



    Also, anyone worried about performance:

    1. It's still a beta.
    2. Our deployment currently isn't crunching our Javascript.  Once we figure out why that's happening, the site will be way faster.
  • blowdartblowdart Peek-a-boo
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    
    blowdart wrote:
    Ajax is so last year. Where's the MVC rewrite?


    Funnay!!!1 


    Actually why am I see cardspace errors from the firefox cardspace plugin? Something you're not telling us? Big Smile
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    Zeus wrote:
    The sign-in page (and some other pages) always crach my FF 2.0.0.14 ...


    Are you running Firebug? If so, you might want to try disabling it for these sites *or* (better option) updating to the most recent firebug beta... there is a bug in the release version that is causing some FF crashes, but I know that it was fixed in the beta.
  • NilsNils silverlight​=true :)

    Maybe I'm wrong with that, but:

    • [enter] does not work on sign-in page
    • The number of "Views" in the thread list does not seem to work (correctly)
    • How to edit the user "title" shown below the avatar?
    • Some pages crash my FF 1.5 (the FireBug problem?)
    • Layout problems in IE6 (e.g. big non-scaled image, overlapping page elements, disappearing posting titles)
    Wiki:
    • Error on page "cakeorpie" when (in this order)
      1. click link for "cakeorpie" on frontpage
      2. reach edit page
      3. click "cancel"
      4. reach normal view of wiki page
      5. press back button in browser
      6. get javascript error "an unhandled exception occured, Message: The server method 'RetrieveByVersion' failed" (no stacktrace)
    • Wiki pages without comments show emtpy comments section with "page 1 of ?"
    • Number of views does not work, everywhere: Views (0)

    Anyway, keep up your good work, this can be great Smiley

  • stevo_stevo_ Human after all

    Meh, I know you guys are saying the ajax stuff is a server side perf issue right now, but even when faster - I hate it.. it doesn't make sense at all..

    I get the feeling I'll use the site less because contrary to point of ajax, it wastes me time because:

    Pages take longer to load (no two ways about it, your perf might be great, but now you're doing at least two requests per page)

    History and navigation support becomes 'iffy

    I've said all this before anyway, so it doesn't look like it will change, you guys are obviously really proud of the work you've done on the ajax stuff..

    But as a developer, I know I've become 'blinkered', focused too much on one aspect, completed it and been happy with how well it turned out, only for it to not work with the 'big picture'..

  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    steveo_, when we're done, the site will be faster.  I don't understand your logic on how two requests has to be slower than one?  In the case of one request the entire page has to be rendered before we send down any data to the client.  Then when paging to the next page of items, the entire page of data has to be rendered again and the entire thing sent to the client (again).  With Ajax we're basically sending down a static page to begin with, with no items on it.  This means less server processing and less bytes sent down the wire to you.  Then we do a request to send the raw data down (happening while the "shell" is still loading around it) and databind it on the client.  When clicking to go to another page, the only thing we send down to the client again is the raw data, so even more so than the first page load, we're saving even more server processing and even less bytes are sent across the wire this time.  Current issues aside, what about that doesn't seem faster and more efficient to you?

    If there are problems with history, let us know.  That is a bug.  Back/forward history support is already in there and works the same as if we weren't using Ajax.  But again, if it's not, then we have a bug and will fix it.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    Nils, thanks for the feedback.  We will be fixing most of those issues soon.
  • ZippyVZippyV Fired Up
    Nils wrote:
    - Some pages crash my FF 1.5 (the FireBug problem?)
    - Layout problems in IE6 (e.g. big non-scaled image, overlapping page elements, disappearing posting titles)

    Why don't you upgrade your browsers?
  • JonathonWCannot​Resolve​Symbol Microsoft: Who do you want to execute today?
    Bug:  by clicking "New Post" in the Sandbox and changing the forum to Coffeehouse, I can add attachments and tags to posts in the Coffeehouse, even though this is impossible from the form you get if you click "New Post" in the Coffeehouse.
  • Matthew van EerdeMatthew van Eerde AKA Maurits
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    Fixed.
  • RowanRowan Look, no errors.
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    Fixed.


    Thanks.

    Although I still see "indexOf(" Firefox/")" in one of the ScriptResource.axd files
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    CannotResolveSymbol wrote:
    Bug:  by clicking "New Post" in the Sandbox and changing the forum to Coffeehouse, I can add attachments and tags to posts in the Coffeehouse, even though this is impossible from the form you get if you click "New Post" in the Coffeehouse.


    Good find, thanks!

    EDIT: Did that post from the Wii so the formatting was goofy.  Fixed now.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    Rowan wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    Fixed.


    Thanks.

    Although I still see "indexOf(" Firefox/")" in one of the ScriptResource.axd files


    All our browser detection is done on the server.  The javascript you're looking at is probably from Silverlight.
  • Duncanma wrote:
    
    Zeus wrote:
    The sign-in page (and some other pages) always crach my FF 2.0.0.14 ...


    Are you running Firebug? If so, you might want to try disabling it for these sites *or* (better option) updating to the most recent firebug beta... there is a bug in the release version that is causing some FF crashes, but I know that it was fixed in the beta.


    Updating to the beta of Firebug seemed to fix it for me.
  • RowanRowan Look, no errors.
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    
    Rowan wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    
    Matthew van Eerde wrote:
    Doesn't work at all in either of my two primary browsers (Minefield or Bon Echo - x64 builds of Firefox).

    Instead of a list of threads I see this:

    Page Navigation




    Fixed.


    Thanks.

    Although I still see "indexOf(" Firefox/")" in one of the ScriptResource.axd files


    All our browser detection is done on the server.  The javascript you're looking at is probably from Silverlight.


    Well, why not fix that too? Then I could watch the videos. Smiley
  • stevo_stevo_ Human after all
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    steveo_, when we're done, the site will be faster.  I don't understand your logic on how two requests has to be slower than one?  In the case of one request the entire page has to be rendered before we send down any data to the client.  Then when paging to the next page of items, the entire page of data has to be rendered again and the entire thing sent to the client (again). 


    Nah, I know you think I haven't got a clue, but web developement is all I do..

    I don't see how you cannot understand my logic of the two requests thing.. its simple, you may think sending one small fragment that essentially represents the master page, then getting a subsequent request to drag in the content is faster, but for the first page.. its not.. its just a bad experience for the user who has to click the page, get a fragment appear, but then have to wait for the content (the content is what the user cares about).. the second request for content only happens once the first request is complete, fired to the client, the page built up enough for dom to fire off the content request, the second request to complete, then get rendered out into the fragment area..

    I'm not saying you can't use ajax, infact- this makes sense for paging, if I click page 2, then yea- update the content only, great idea, but its the first initial request that doesn't make sense to split.
  • MinhMinh WOOH!  WOOH!
    stevo_ wrote:
    
    I don't see how you cannot understand my logic of the two requests thing.. its simple, you may think sending one small fragment that essentially represents the master page, then getting a subsequent request to drag in the content is faster, but for the first page.. its not..

    There are 2 page requests, but what you're not getting is that the 1st page request is MUCH smaller that the 1 request of the current site.

    And since the 1st page request is rendered PRIOR to making the 2nd request (safe assumption), you get something much sooner than you would get something in the current site.

    So in that sense, it is a better experience.

    The 2nd request should be as large as the 1 request of the current site, and depends on how much they pre-render the HTML, should appear just as fast.

    So, if all things being equal, and things done right, V4 should be just as fast as V3... and probably more user-friendly.

  • Minh wrote:
    

    There are 2 page requests, but what you're not getting is that the 1st page request is MUCH smaller that the 1 request of the current site.


    But aren't you ignoring that the fact that to complete two requests may take longer than 1 large request when you begin to include latency issues?

    This isn't a critcism of the design, I quite like it, but I have always felt that the perceived speed of Channel 8 has always been slower than Channel9.

    However, the many advantages of the new C9 outweigh any potential speed issues that the new site might have when it is launched.

    Kevin

    P.S. Congrats on the new design by the way, it is a massive improvement, can't wait until it launches.

    Do you have any plans to do more of those Dev Diary videos, they were good.

  • MinhMinh WOOH!  WOOH!
    KevinB wrote:
    
    Minh wrote:
    

    There are 2 page requests, but what you're not getting is that the 1st page request is MUCH smaller that the 1 request of the current site.


    But aren't you ignoring that the fact that to complete two requests may take longer than 1 large request when you begin to include latency issues?

    Relatively, it doesn't matter. Because you only make the 2 requests at the beginning. When you start doing paging, you only make the data request (at least you should).

    And since you don't get the browser "flash", it is a better user experience.

    But that is all dependant on the entire thing not being noticeably slower than the current site.

    KevinB wrote:
    
    This isn't a critcism of the design, I quite like it, but I have always felt that the perceived speed of Channel 8 has always been slower than Channel9.

    I defintely felt C8 is slower... and if C8 is running on the same server farm as C9, then, Houston, we have a problem... Come to think of it, C8 is almost certainly on the same server farm.

    Hmmm...
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    Wouldn't it be a good idea to send both the page itself (or whatever is in that first request) and the initial data (like the first page of a thread) in the first request, and then when someone starts paging, just do a request for the next page data? Then you'd at least get the first page in one go, and speedy data-only requests when paging.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    stevo_ wrote:
    
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    steveo_, when we're done, the site will be faster.  I don't understand your logic on how two requests has to be slower than one?  In the case of one request the entire page has to be rendered before we send down any data to the client.  Then when paging to the next page of items, the entire page of data has to be rendered again and the entire thing sent to the client (again). 


    Nah, I know you think I haven't got a clue, but web developement is all I do..

    I don't see how you cannot understand my logic of the two requests thing.. its simple, you may think sending one small fragment that essentially represents the master page, then getting a subsequent request to drag in the content is faster, but for the first page.. its not.. its just a bad experience for the user who has to click the page, get a fragment appear, but then have to wait for the content (the content is what the user cares about).. the second request for content only happens once the first request is complete, fired to the client, the page built up enough for dom to fire off the content request, the second request to complete, then get rendered out into the fragment area..

    I'm not saying you can't use ajax, infact- this makes sense for paging, if I click page 2, then yea- update the content only, great idea, but its the first initial request that doesn't make sense to split.


    I know you have a clue and I know all you do is web development.  I've seen a lot of your tech posts.  Maybe you don't know it's all I do too.  Smiley

    I get what you're saying about their being 2 requests instead of 1, but in reality for the entire page to load, there are a lot more than 2 requests.  In the grand scheme of the page loading, that extra single request is minimal.  As Minh pointed out (thanks, Minh), the initial page load is much smaller and much faster.  We could even set the cache for the page to be an hour so it always comes from your browser cache (since only the content is changing) to improve things further.  I know most of the win here is in paging subsequent pages, but there is still some performance to be had on the initial load.

    As for the experience, I don't buy it.  Look at any piece of software that gets its data from online somewhere.  Would you rather the app not come up at all until it has the data or would you rather it come up and tell you it's loading data from elsewhere?  We still have some things to improve on the experience (no doubt), but personally, I'm all for enhancing the experience of the web and getting away from the jarring experience of page loads.

    FYI, the homepage does load up the content with the page and then uses Ajax for paging.  Per all of you complaining about the forum thread list (like for the Coffeehouse) loading up using Ajax, we already switched it over to loading from the server for the initial load.

    The reason it's slow right now (and this actually applied to Channel 8 too for those of you who commented on that) is that our production build has a problem at the moment and isn't crunching the Javascript.  This makes for big files that also have their cachability set to none.  Once we fix the build problem the files will be much smaller and won't be downloaded on every single page request.  Also, we've recently switched to a new webfarm for our new sites.  Bigger SQL server, more web nodes, etc.  We're actually just running on 3 of the 5 nodes at the moment, but we'll go to 5 soon too.  We will continue to improve the performance and experience, but we're definitely not leaving our current model.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    well regardless of that - or the editor - im looking forward to it (and something new to look at)

    when will it replace this one?


    PS - the flyouts look better with lowercase text.  thanks for that Smiley
    ...although..consider bold (like now)  ?
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    KevinB wrote:
    
    Minh wrote:
    

    There are 2 page requests, but what you're not getting is that the 1st page request is MUCH smaller that the 1 request of the current site.


    But aren't you ignoring that the fact that to complete two requests may take longer than 1 large request when you begin to include latency issues?

    This isn't a critcism of the design, I quite like it, but I have always felt that the perceived speed of Channel 8 has always been slower than Channel9.

    However, the many advantages of the new C9 outweigh any potential speed issues that the new site might have when it is launched.

    Kevin

    P.S. Congrats on the new design by the way, it is a massive improvement, can't wait until it launches.

    Do you have any plans to do more of those Dev Diary videos, they were good.



    See my previous post about Channel 8 (and Channel 9 beta) performance.

    We're glad you like what you see...thanks!  Smiley

    Dev Diary videos are definitely going to continue, we just got too busy finishing/shipping the beta to publish anymore.  Once we ship the beta to be the real site, we'll get back on the dev diary videos and talk about the entire platform.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    Minh wrote:
    
    KevinB wrote:
    
    Minh wrote:
    

    There are 2 page requests, but what you're not getting is that the 1st page request is MUCH smaller that the 1 request of the current site.


    But aren't you ignoring that the fact that to complete two requests may take longer than 1 large request when you begin to include latency issues?

    Relatively, it doesn't matter. Because you only make the 2 requests at the beginning. When you start doing paging, you only make the data request (at least you should).

    And since you don't get the browser "flash", it is a better user experience.

    But that is all dependant on the entire thing not being noticeably slower than the current site.

    KevinB wrote:
    
    This isn't a critcism of the design, I quite like it, but I have always felt that the perceived speed of Channel 8 has always been slower than Channel9.

    I defintely felt C8 is slower... and if C8 is running on the same server farm as C9, then, Houston, we have a problem... Come to think of it, C8 is almost certainly on the same server farm.

    Hmmm...


    Thanks for the comments, Minh.  Appreciated!

    As for C8 being slower, see my previous post.
  • mejamie Niner since 2004







    its cool how the header background was done. Will be easier to make christmas themes etc.

    would be great if we could make our own and add them to profile - and even share them
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    jamie wrote:
    well regardless of that - or the editor - im looking forward to it (and something new to look at)

    when will it replace this one?


    PS - the flyouts look better with lowercase text.  thanks for that
    ...although..consider bold (like now)  ?


    Glad to hear it and you're welcome.  We'll consider bold.  No promises though.  Smiley

    As for when it will replace this one, we don't have an official date we can say, but we're looking for as much feedback as you guys can give and bugs you can find so that once we address all of those and the site is solid (read:bugs and performance tuning) then we'll flip the switch.

    So far we've already fixed some of the bugs you all have mentioned and appropriate other modifications.  We are feature complete and will continue to fix things until we're comfortable you'll all have a good experience on the new site.  We're getting close.  Smiley

    Also, to set everyone's expectations, we know there are some things missing at the moment (nothing major we hope though).  Items that we here about the most from all of you will get back in faster.  In the past we've been pretty slow to say...release the beta, update the beta, etc.  Now that all our sites are on the same code, iterating on all of them is a piece of cake and new features take a lot less time (now that we have the base platform done).  We will now update the site as we get new features and bug fixes.  My guess would be that you'll see updates monthly, but the way Duncan likes to deploy as soon as we're done coding you'll probably sometimes see updates weekly.  We just want you all to understand that we're much more agile now and will be updating the site a lot more frequently.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    jamie wrote:
     

    its cool how the header background was done. Will be easier to make christmas themes etc.

    would be great if we could make our own and add them to profile - and even share them


    Cool backgrounds.  I'll probably go over it in a future dev diary video, but basically we've redone how we do "theming".  For us to create a new theme (or even you guys) is pretty trivial.  I can't promise we'll get to user theming anytime soon (if ever), but personally, it's a feature I'd like to see and again, now that we have the base platform there, it's not too hard to add.  Smiley
  • mejamie Niner since 2004
    cool.

    * see on above screens - they are constrained to 650 width - but if you click them - you can see actual size?

    that would be good for images in v4 (rather than only small)

    ..yadda


    edit:  .... width=650 height=proportional
                  and if
                   in quote: width=604




    edit2: you know what else is interesting (i just noticed)?

    the full 9 guy is almost exactly like in the very first version of c9.  size.. placement..

    very retro  Wink
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    Rowan wrote:
    Well, why not fix that too? Then I could watch the videos.
  • RowanRowan Look, no errors.
    Duncanma wrote:
    *emptiness*


    Perplexed
  • blowdartblowdart Peek-a-boo
    Rowan wrote:
    
    Duncanma wrote:
    *emptiness*





    You meanie. You make Duncan empty inside.
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    Rowan wrote:
    
    Duncanma wrote:
    *emptiness*





    No idea what happened there... I had actually typed a reply Smiley

    My intended reply was to ask what browser/os you were using... because changing that check in Silverlight.js may not be enough to make Silverlight work in your browser... I was also curious if you had the ability to spoof your user-agent, and if Silverlight on the site worked for you in that case?
  • Árni Gunnar RagnarssonZeus Why is the caption missing??
    Duncanma wrote:
    
    Zeus wrote:
    The sign-in page (and some other pages) always crach my FF 2.0.0.14 ...


    Are you running Firebug? If so, you might want to try disabling it for these sites *or* (better option) updating to the most recent firebug beta... there is a bug in the release version that is causing some FF crashes, but I know that it was fixed in the beta.
    I disabled Firebug, and i got past the sign-in page, but it crashed on the profile page.
  • Tommy CarlierTommyCarlier Widen your gaze
    I look forward to the new C9, but I don't really like the fact that it relies on JavaScript so much. Like you can see from the bug reports, browser-specific code creates a lot of problems. I realize it's too late to radically change the architecture of the EvNet-platform, but I'd have prefered a site that uses progressive enhancements, where CSS and JavaScript are used to add dynamic functionality to an application that also works if CSS and/or JavaScript are disabled (or not implemented by the browser).
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    TommyCarlier wrote:
    I look forward to the new C9, but I don't really like the fact that it relies on JavaScript so much. Like you can see from the bug reports, browser-specific code creates a lot of problems. I realize it's too late to radically change the architecture of the EvNet-platform, but I'd have prefered a site that uses progressive enhancements, where CSS and JavaScript are used to add dynamic functionality to an application that also works if CSS and/or JavaScript are disabled (or not implemented by the browser).


    That is our preference as well, but we didn't start out with that in mind... which, as you probably know, is less than ideal Smiley

    We are trying hard to make sure the site works without script for at least browsing... we aren't working on commenting/posting without script at the moment, but we'll probably get to it eventually.

    As far as the browser specific problems goes, I don't think we are actually running into that many that are related to browser compatibility issues... and we have very little browser-specific code. The dev team is using FF 2.* and 3.0 beta 5 right now, along with IE7 and IE8 ... and testing in Opera/Safari and as of a few days ago another Gecko browser K-Meleon ... all without any real issues. We are focusing on doing the CSS/Script correctly the first time, so that it works across all of these browsers without having to do any hacks.

    I understand the desire for progress enhancement, and you are right that it is too late to radically change the architecture of the UI, but we will be making the experience better for non-javascript supported and non-javascript enabled browsers over time.
  • Alexei PavlovBlackTiger If you stumbled and fell down, it doesn't mean yet, that you're going in the wrong direction.
    Firefox 3 support?  

    I mean Silverlight support in FF3.
    Just replace "Silverlight.js" with "proper" version from "microsoft.com/silverlight".
  • Duncan MackenzieDuncanma "yeah that's awful close, but that's not why I'm so hard done by"
    Just a quick note to let folks know that we feel the beta is getting very close to ship... there are still a few issues that we know about, and probably many that we don't... so this would be a great time to head over, click around, sign-in, post comments, play videos... etc...

    one known issue:

    some videos have been accidentally tagged with wiki tags and therefore are showing up at the wrong urls (and not working) ... I believe this is only happening for a few videos in the Silverlight and WPF tags right now, and we're working on fixing it.

    I'm sure there are others, but I'm tired and that is the one that I just noticed!

    As far as the data is concerned, the wiki is out of date by about 2 weeks, but the rest of the site should only be a few hours behind. The data transfer is a process that I kick off manually though, so that few hours gap will increases while I sleep Smiley

    Feedback is very welcome, http://beta.channel9.msdn.com/forums/feedback would be a great place to put it... and you get to try out posting in the new forum at the same time!

    Thanks in advance for any time you spend on the beta!



  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    Duncanma wrote:

    sign-in
    [...]
    post comments
    [...]
    http://beta.channel9.msdn.com/forums/feedback would be a great place to put it...
    [...]
    you get to try out posting in the new forum


    Here's the thing: I still can't log in. There's no Live ID sign in that I can see, and I still have no idea what my account password is. I tried the reset password feature, but that throws me this error:

    System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. at EvNet.Services.Emails.SendForgotPassword(EvNetUser User, String email) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\Emails.cs:line 93 at EvNet.Services.MembershipProvider.Users.ResetPassword(String EmailAddress) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Services\MembershipProvider\Users.cs:line 725 at EvNet.Web.Pages.UserResetPassword.ResetButton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\projects\Dev\EvNet\Web\Pages\UserResetPassword.cs:line 66

    It's hard to post feedback without being able to actually sign in. Tongue Out
  • stevo_stevo_ Human after all
    Since you are keeping the thread pagination system the same, would it perhaps be a good idea on the thread to have a noscript explaining you need javascript?

    It's just odd you can click a thread and get nothing but the pager and header.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    stevo_, you CAN or you DO?  I don't think we need to make any changes for what CAN happen.  If we are crippling a lot of our users that'll definitely get us to make changes.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    Bas, true...sorry about that.  We just fixed (today) some more interesting problems with passwords and resetting them.  When was the last time you tried to reset your password?
  • You guys should add the Video Length (Play time) to the Description in the RSS feed. This would save guys like me (or probably just me) a click to see the play-time.

    Thanks.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    acnvrk, interesting idea.  There's more we'd like to do in the future with the RSS feed.  We'll consider your suggestion.  Thanks!
  • PaoloMPaoloM Hypermedioc​rity
    One more thing to fit in the schedule! Smiley

    It's not obvious how you go to the last post of a thread. If you click on the username, you get rightly whisked to the user's page, so maybe hyperlinking "Last:" with an anchor to the last post?
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    PaoloM wrote:
    One more thing to fit in the schedule!

    It's not obvious how you go to the last post of a thread. If you click on the username, you get rightly whisked to the user's page, so maybe hyperlinking "Last:" with an anchor to the last post?


    We don't have a "last" link anymore.  That's why it's not obvious.  Smiley  We ended up not having time to implement it before launch (but it will come soon after probably), but we're going to do something more useful, which is to automatically take you to the last unread post when you enter a thread (with no page parameter specified).  "last" doesn't always get you where you need to go, just on the right page.  We can do better (and will soon).  Smiley
  • stevo_stevo_ Human after all
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    Bas, true...sorry about that.  We just fixed (today) some more interesting problems with passwords and resetting them.  When was the last time you tried to reset your password?


    Sums up the vision of MS when it comes to the web, your mighty interested in it, but aren't following any of the passion that generic web developers have..

    Adding a noscript tag to at least tell the user whats going on isn't a big deal..

    If your adding experience that utterly required js, then you shouldn't leave the non-js people in the dark.

    I would actually agree that adding features shouldn't be done unless their needed.. but adding a noscript tag is a 30 second job, to say 'yea- we thought about you guys.'..
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    Bas, true...sorry about that.  We just fixed (today) some more interesting problems with passwords and resetting them.  When was the last time you tried to reset your password?


    Yesterday afternoon. I'm gonna give it a go right now...

    ...hmm, it now says that my new password has been sent, but I have yet to see it appear in my inbox. I hope I used the same e-mail address to register my account that I use for my Live ID, otherwise I have no idea which one to use. Maybe it'll arrive later on.

    (Edit: hmm, looks like it just tells you that the password has been sent regardless of what you enter in the e-mail address box.)


    Minor nitpick though: The "Your new password has been sent" message could be a bit clearer. Right now it's the same text you got before clicking the button, just with the "Your new password has been sent" message tacked on. It's not immediately clear that something has actually happened.

    stevo_ wrote:
    
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    Bas, true...sorry about that.  We just fixed (today) some more interesting problems with passwords and resetting them.  When was the last time you tried to reset your password?


    Sums up the vision of MS when it comes to the web, your mighty interested in it, but aren't following any of the passion that generic web developers have..

    Adding a noscript tag to at least tell the user whats going on isn't a big deal..

    If your adding experience that utterly required js, then you shouldn't leave the non-js people in the dark.

    I would actually agree that adding features shouldn't be done unless their needed.. but adding a noscript tag is a 30 second job, to say 'yea- we thought about you guys.'..


    I guess you have a point about the non-js experience, but what does that have to do with password resets?
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    stevo_ wrote:
    
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    Bas, true...sorry about that.  We just fixed (today) some more interesting problems with passwords and resetting them.  When was the last time you tried to reset your password?


    Sums up the vision of MS when it comes to the web, your mighty interested in it, but aren't following any of the passion that generic web developers have..

    Adding a noscript tag to at least tell the user whats going on isn't a big deal..

    If your adding experience that utterly required js, then you shouldn't leave the non-js people in the dark.

    I would actually agree that adding features shouldn't be done unless their needed.. but adding a noscript tag is a 30 second job, to say 'yea- we thought about you guys.'..


    You shouldn't over-generalize.  We're a big company.  We're a very small team and have limited time.  Our focus is on the best experience for the most amount of people for the least amount of development time.  We'll continue to work on the no javascript experience, but our only priority there is for search engines.  We don't get a whole lot of users to our sites that don't run a javascript-capable browser.  As usual, I'm missing what the big deal is here.
  • Erik PorterHuman​Compiler Now with more apps
    Bas, I'm not sure our background services are turned on right now and that's what sends out the e-mails.  We'll get back to you tomorrow.
  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.
    HumanCompiler wrote:
    Bas, I'm not sure our background services are turned on right now and that's what sends out the e-mails.  We'll get back to you tomorrow.


    Cool, thanks for the update.
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