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Desktop Search Feature Requests


Summary: Feature requests for Windows Desktop Search

This is the place to request new features in Windows Desktop Search
* If you've got a general question, try DesktopSearchQuestions
* If you want to report a bug, try DesktopSearchBugReports
* Feature requests that have been implemented are in DesktopSearchFeaturesAdded
* Or go back to WindowsDesktopSearchFeedback

When adding a request to this page, make sure to:
* Skim the page first, in case someone's requested something similar - if so, add to their entry rather than creating an entirely new one
* Find the right place in the (alphabetical) list for your request :)

Note that many feature requestes here may have already been solved by newer versions. I think that we should clean this page by removing any request that was satisfied by new version to make this page more clear and helpful. (I've moved some of the implemented feature requests to DesktopSearchFeaturesAdded -- JonathanHardwick)




Enhance Document/File Searches


Enhance the search options to include searching by specific file name, title, author, category, etc. Allow me to choose Category: News, Author: Me, Date: 07-15-07 to 08-15-08 all at the same time from a simple drop down menu or select boxes. This would allow Desktop Search to provide some light document management features.

Add a Windows PowerShell "provider" for Windows Desktop Search


Make the the index meta data accessable to PowerShell via a provider like the built-ins with RC2 for the registry.

		 PsSH >  psdrive
	

		 Name       Provider      Root
		 ----       --------      ----
		 A          [FileSystem]    A:\
		 Alias      Alias
		 C          [FileSystem]    C:\
		 cert       Certificate   \
		 D          [FileSystem]    D:\
		 E          [FileSystem]    E:\
		 Env        Environment
		 F          [FileSystem]    F:\
		 Function   Function
		 G          [FileSystem]    G:\
		 HKCU       Registry      HKEY_C
		 HKLM       Registry      HKEY_L
		 Variable   Variable
		 [WDSIndex]   [FileSystem]    WDS:\             This is the new psdrive that is needed
		 Z          [FileSystem]    Z:\
	


		 PsSH >  [Get-ChildItem] -path WDS:* -recurse | Where {($_.kind -eq "Email") 
		         -and ($_.CreatedDate -gt (get-date).year} | Select- Object Subject, Attachment
	


The naming conventions for the resulting WDS properties should be kept PowerShell standard. The search syntax with PowerShell is already better than the search syntax in the WDS UI. Thanks RickW

Add Support For Additional Exchange Mailboxes

We use Outlook/Exchange for our corporate e-mail. I have two mailboxes that I access: (1) My personal mailbox which is configured as the Exchange account, and (2) A "shared" mailbox for the group that we all access in Outlook via the "Open These Additional Mailboxes" feature.

WDS can't index the additional mailbox, only mine. I can't select it in the list of folders to index. Copernic's Desktop Search can index both. So, I use Copernic. I would really prefer to use WDS (like the UI better). Unfortunately, the shared mailbox is the one I need to search the most, since it contains tens of thousands of messages going back years.

Allow GUI to be modified for internal branding and cultural clarification

Please allow the colors and text of the Desktop Search buttons and background to be modified. As we have been testing it in our enterprise, many of our users have been confused by the interface they get if they go to Start -> Search. They are presented with a number of search fields, but the actual search is couched in a different color with a button which says "Desktop" next to it. For our users, "Desktop" does not equate to "Search now!", so I would like to be able to edit a config file/css file/registry key/whatever means necessary to make the tool clear for my user population without having to retrain them.

Allow IFilters to extend the strings returned as PerceivedType

When indexing unusual data types, it would be nice to create a new PerceivedType rather than be forced to use a string from the predefined list. For example, if a filter was written for chromatography data, it would be nice to give it a PerceivedType other than "Document".


Allow indexing of Alternate Data Streams

Adding metadata to normal 'visible' files, especially those which form a dataset along with other files, is very neatly handled by using an ADS (Alternate Data Stream) for each of the 'visible' files.

In addition to both structured (XML) and unstructured ADS streams added to such files, we have used custom property sheets that can be accessed in the usual way (and, via a button and some custom code, can read the ADS streams associated with the parent file).

But it would be very nice to be able to use Windows DTS to maintain an index of the 'hidden' streams.

We see that the answer given to a feature request at the bottom of this page is:
WDS will ignore directories and files that are marked as "hidden."
If you remove the "hidden" attribute, you should be able to index them
by selecting them in the "Custom Folder and Email Locations" folder-picker, in Desktop Search Options.

That's not a particularly useful hint for ADS, though.

Add search functionality to all File / Open (and File / Save?) dialog boxes


This would obviously require a whole bunch of work, but would really prove the benefit of having an integrated desktop search tool from Microsoft. Anywhere I'm looking for files I should be able to leverage desktop search functionality, instead of having to hotkey or alt-tab to another app to find the files I'm looking for.

Answer: We're always considering available options for additional entrypoints into Desktop Search, and the Open/Save dialogs are great candidates for this functionality. You can already see this functionality integrated into the current beta and CTP releases of Windows Vista. -- BrandonPaddock

Advanced query syntax - query building dialog


It would be great to be able to build an advanced query in a dialog, picking options, instead of having to learn and remember the syntax rules and type the queries. You know, picking the date and location from a menu instead of having to type: Mary AND summer date:>11/05/04 under:"My Documents\My Pictures\2005\2005-06 Pictures of Mary".

Answer: Using the Enterprise version of WDS and Windows XP (see EnterpriseDesktopSearch), you can use the enhanced WDS "Search Pane" (by clicking Start menu then "Search", or the "Search" button inside of any Explorer window. This feature will also be coming to the consumer-targetted release soon. -- BrandonPaddock

Allow "Find all related items" search from Outlook search results


If this can be done I haven't discovered it. If isn't there, it would be killer to have it. If it is there, it should easily discoverable. The more ways that results can be filtered directly from the results page the better.

Answer: See the answers (and big chunks of VBA code) in DesktopSearchCode
Answer: If you install the Enterprise version of WDS and the Enterprise MSN Toolbar (see EnterpriseDesktopSearch) - there is now a Conversation button on the Outlook search bar. Is that what you're looking for? -- BrandonPaddock

API


Let's have an API so that our applications can run queries on the desktop search database. It could be an ADO.NET provider allowing us full SQL queries, a COM API for simple keyword searches, a SOAP service like Amazon's API, or an XML-RPC service. It should be easily callable from all the Microsoft languages, plus Perl, Python, Java, et al. It'd be nice to group-brainstorm such a Desktop Search API. Perhaps a separate DesktopSearchAPI wiki is in order ?

Also, when thinking of such an API, it'd be nice to think cross-tool cross-platform, so that an app could call the API on DS or Google DS or Apple DS or Whatever DS. Open-sourcing the developer-interface layers of such an API would aid x-tool x-platform adoption.

ANSWER: It's out! The Windows Desktop Search API is now documented at the developer pages#WindowsDesktopSearchApi -- JonathanHardwick

Better networking capability


I need a feature that enables me to point WDS to an index file that is stored on a server. None of my users keep files on their desktop machines. They all have them in central locations on a server. What I'd like to do is index this shared, mapped drive on the server side, and just point the users to that index. It beats having EVERY user banging that server all day and indexing it. I can't have that.

Answer: The Enterprise release of Desktop Search (see EnterpriseDesktopSearch) allows you to point to an external query provider (using a URL with a query injected) such as a SharePoint server or other intranet search solution. This is the first step toward our goal of providing an enhanced search experience in corporate/enterprise environments. -- BrandonPaddock

Disable "search completed" notification pop-up


There ought to be an option to turn off the little square pop-up by the taskbar telling me that Desktop Search has finished searching. More than once this has appeared during a presentation to a large audience, which is not very professional-looking.

Drag-and-drop from the quick search pop-up window


It's pretty self-explanatory. I like using the deskbar to find items that I would like to import into the app I'm currently working with (by dragging it from the search window to the app) and it's much easier to find a file via the pop-up window as it supports search-as-you-type and the full-blown results window does not. -- BGil

File location paths should be easier to understand


Currently, if you look at the path (at least in column view) for a found object, it is not very user friendly. It shows email attachments as a type of file path, with the name of the PST file being the root directory. Although the "type" of the object is shown in the column next to the path, it is still somewhat ambiguous. It would be helpful from a usability perspective if email and file paths could be shown differently. I'm not sure what the answer is, but -- danwarne

Find partial email addresses


This works from:Microsoft@newsletters.microsoft.com but I wish it would work using from:microsoft.com or from:*microsoft.com

Find within Preview by the search keywords


This can be done but is deep in the UI and not quick to use. Copernic and Google Toolbar add the search keywords as buttons you can click on to search within the preview page. Fast and easy to use!

Icon Handler shell extensions


Except in special cases (.EXE's, .URL's, some image files), Windows Desktop Search seems to use the default icon for every file of a given type, even if there is an icon handler that returns a different icon for each file. For example, try it with .MSC files. In Explorer, they each have a different icon, but in Desktop Search they are all the same. Is this a missing feature? -- Catatonic.

Index all PST files, whether loaded in Outlook or not.


I have a habit of storing my mails in one PST file per year, so I have by now six PST files. Using Lookout search, I was able to open all of them in Outlook, index everything, and from then on keep closed all but the current year, and still be able to search on all of them. I am looking forward to this kind of functionality. The shortcoming of Lookout is that it has no preview. -- Ivo

Index Usenet posts from Outlook Express


Please consider indexing usenet posts. I use outlook express newsreader (the slightly limited by command line parameter setup Outlook gives you). I would like to see the usenet posts OE become searchable. -- blowdart

Here was me hoping that the ability to index OE would allow Desktop Search to pickup my usenet subscriptions and index the messages. So why didn't it?

Index XMP and IPTC image metadata


I want to do more than just search the filenames of image files. At the moment, Windows Desktop Search ignores IPTC and XMP metadata in image files. Bizarrely, the clunky old Windows XP Desktop Search will find hits in this metadata through brute force (and therefore slooow). BTW, Picasa2 will search this metadata - and it's faaaast. Thanks - Geoff Coupe

ANSWER: This probably just needs an appropriate IFilter

Followup - I found PixVue - an EXIF/IPTC/XMP metadata editor for image files. This does have an IFilter, and some of the properties are now certainly being acted upon (e.g. keywords). However, I'm not sure that all the properties are being picked up on (e.g. City/State/Country). Could this be the fact that the nlhtml.dll IFilter is actually used on the index? PixVue apparently maps the Keyword (subject) field onto the DocKeywords property, which might explain why I can now search on IPTC Keywords, but not on the other metadata. - Geoff Coupe

Index a local installed Microsoft Encarta


Users should be able to search seamless in an installed Microsoft Encarta.

Installation "branding"


Please don't drop things on my desktop without asking me. Please consider making the IE homepage and search engine resets on installation off by default, instead of acting like a RealPlayer install <g> -- blowdart

Integration with Windows Search Functionality


I guess the title says it all, could you hook this in to replace the default Windows Search experience, or at least add it under the Search Start Item menu? -- Alexb.

For another vote for this feature, see this newsgroup thread_thread/thread/9b84c4d08d26c205/c055d5939d65960c#c055d5939d65960c -- JonathanHardwick

Or at least better integrate it with the IE search functionality (i.e., the Search pane?) --JoeZ

Integration with MSN Messenger/Desk Bar and Widgets


Make a suit of software that integrates WDS, Windows Live Search, MSN Messenger, Deskbar and Gadgets. It will allow you use MSN Messenger power to distribute others products to millions people. Users like me also benefit from having single place to access all kind of online services provided by MSN. -- TanNg

Make the location of found items more obvious


Although MSN Desktop Search already shows the location of found items in two places (below the preview of the object, and in a column on the right hand side of the search results) both places are easily missed. For many users, this information is important if they want to operate on the file in some other way than through the options available to them in MSN Desktop Search. It would be ideal if there was a dedicated pane that appeared at the bottom of search results showing where a file located. -- danwarne

Make the Deskbar Pop-Up Friendly


Could you modify the Deskbar so that, when active, it holds open any pop-up toolbar on which it is resident? I’d like to park the Deskbar on the top edge of the screen so as to release valuable space on the main taskbar, and I’d like it ‘pop-up’ so I can have more screen area when the bar is not in use, i.e., most of the time. At present the Deskbar won’t work like that because after you've typed in the search term, when you move the cursor to the results window the toolbar suddenly retracts taking away the text entry box and shifting the results vertically by the width of the toolbar. -- David Tong

More configurable options for searching XML files.


Be able (without the need of an IFilter) to configure Desktop Search to search XML files to a particular schema
so it could recognize and map some XML elements accordinly to the search result fields such as title, author, keywords.

More control of which folders are indexed


Also, in Advanced, you don't let me have access to all of the C: drive to select for indexing. For some reason you've decided certain folders "off limits". I'd like to control that. -- pcause

ANSWER: The UI needs to be worked on still but you do have complete access to what gets indexed. Try using the arrow drop-down to deselect all children folders or you can manually go check on/off any folder you wish.

Well, not exactly. The interface only show my folder in "Documents and Settings" even though I have access to all of the folders. I have 2 logins on my Win XP Pro system and want it all indexed and available from my primary login. I expect that you limited this for security/privacy reasons for XP Home users, but, I need the control. I also think you don't let me index "Windows" either. If someone has administrator rights and it is XP Pro and NTFS, let them access what they have permissions to. This is no different than access to network shares.

ANSWER: Well, not quite true. :-) I'm currently indexing my C:\Windows\Help folder, have access to the rest of my C drive if I wanted it, etc. Just choose "Specific locations", Browse..., and you're good to go. Easy to add networked shares, and anything else you want, this way. I'm running XP Home in an Administrator account, however.

I've tried again with the newest version. I can not get it to index the "Application Data" folder of the "c:\documents and settings\username" folder. It doesn't display in the list and I tried typing the name in the box at the bottom and clicking "Add", but that doesn't work. Is there something coming to give the user more control here.

More short-cut key combinations for the deskbar


Right now, I can't just use F12 as the short-cut key. I can enter it in the input box, it just doesn't activate the deskbar. Also, requiring key combination could have some accessibility ramifications.

Ctrl-Space has also been requested as a shortcut key -- JonathanHardwick

Multiple index files, each referring to a different location.


An index file for a network share could then have multiple users without the need for everyone to index the share separately. Index Server without the server!

Native preview of TIF files


I have a document storage system that uses TIF format and the documents are OCR'd. The files got correctly indexed, but the preview showed text rather than the image. So I installed a 3rd party TIF viewer (Alternatiff IE plug-in) and entered {015CA7C6-DECD-40dc-AAAC-73EA9940E0F9} for Default in HKEYCURRENTUSER\Software\Microsoft\RSSearch\ContentIndexCommon\Previewers\Extension\. Now the preview works but I get a security warning in the Information Bar about the plug-in being a safety hazard. Have to click twice before seeing the picture. It would be nice to have the Windows native previewer (Windows Picture and Fax Viewer) used in MSN Desktop search. -- Ivo

Nicer auto-hide UI


The desktop search bar takes a lot of room on the taskbar. I can current get decent auto-hide capabilities by undocking it from the task bar and docking it to a side of the desktop. However, it's kind of clunky - for example it's a giant, mostly empty toolbar which pops out when I hover the mouse over it accidentally. What I really would like is an option for no UI until I hit the hotkey. Then it could pop up a search box down near the taskbar. See the SlickRun application for a perfect example.

"Open with" context menu item


This is similar to the "save as" request above. If it were possible to open found objects with an application of the user's choosing (rather than the file-associated application) that would make working with MSN Desktop Search much easier. -- danwarne

Outlook 2000 in Internet-Only mode


Can you please make Windows Desktop Search work with Outlook 2000 in ‘Internet Only’ mode and not just in ‘Corporate/Workgroup’ mode? I know it’s possible because both Copernic DS and Google DS do it very successfully. All I have to do with CDS or GDS is keep outlook.pst and archive.pst open, and they get indexed. I can then search for emails and contacts. In contrast MSNDS ignores them completely. Switching Outlook 2000 to CW mode is not an acceptable alternative because I then lose the ability to choose the sending account from the Send button. (Maybe I missed it, but I can’t find any reference to the need for IO mode in the MSNDS documentation). -- David Tong

ANSWER: MAPI and CDO are not supported unless you are in CW mode. Please read http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;252720 for more details. We could in theory write a completely different outlook access module but that would be less performant and less secure, and also mean that we aren't able to work on other higher priority features - Tom Laird-McConnell

Place file location paths on screen consistently


It's confusing that if you have several identical objects, but stored in different places, MSN Desktop Search shows the file path in some cases and not in others. For example, if there are two identical JPEG images found by MSN Desktop Search and one is a file stored on disk, while the other is an email attachment, MSN Desktop Search will display the file path underneath the image preview if it is a file stored on disk. But it will NOT show the path underneath the image preview if it is an email attachment. (In fact the only way to identify it as an email attachment is to scroll right across to the column on the right hand side to see the object type & file path ... that is, if you realise there are columns there to begin with.) -- danwarne

Popup box


One thing the Google Deskbar does very, very well with is their popup when performing a search - instead of launching a full-fledged browser, they have a small, nice UI which "nests" an instance of IE. For some reason, this loads faster than the actual IE window for me, and doesn't provide an irritating popup. It's an intermediate step in between actually opening IE and being able to search. A similar feature would be very, very nice - it's one of the things that keeps the Google Deskbar in the running. -Michael Griffiths

Provide a second way to get at all the functionality of the toolbar buttons


If the toolbar buttons have been removed to save space, there's no way to get access to some of their functionality (such as "clear history"). It would be good to also add this functionality to the menu of the taskbar icon - see this newsgroup post_thread/thread/f4a70ed57d5cf14f/419d0e4c56b11d72#419d0e4c56b11d72

Public Folder support


As it is now Public Folder support is through Cached Mode, as Cached Mode slow down alot a soon as you enter several gigs of data in them, as MS writes "If the user's OST file grows too large (for example, larger than 1 GB), Outlook with Cached Exchange Mode performance degrades.". And as Lookout could do it without any problems, it shouldn't be to hard to do -- Hero88

Replace Start / Search with Desktop Search.


Obviously you'd need to leave Find People/Printers and other AD searchs as they are, but why not replace the Search start menu item and have it open up desktop search? You would, of course, ask people first if that's what they want to do.

Remove the search text once enter is pressed.


It would be great if the text could disappear from the desktop toolbar once enter is pressed to execute a search. I find myself always going back to delete it. -- Mladen.

Results window: better selecting and sorting


How about adding the ability to pick which fields to display? Also, it would be cool to have a "Group By" feature. What about being able to sort on multiple columns. - dscheidt

I would like to add my support for this request. -- imunro

Results window: columns should be easier to find


The columns that accompany search results in MSN Desktop Search have very useful information about the found objects. However, a user is only likely to find them if they go specifically looking for them, because by default, search results do not show the additional columns - even if the window is full screen on a high-res monitor. Although showing the extra columns by default would not necessarily be desirable from the perspective of keeping the product simple for novice users, it would be a big improvement to include an obvious button that slides the preview away (or shrinks the width) to reveal the extra columns. -- danwarne

Results window: context-sensitive filtering


After bringing up a whole load of results, it would be great if the context menu for each item had entries that altered the search. e.g:
* limit to files created/modified with 1day/1week/1month/1year of this file.
* limit to files of this type / exclude files of this type
* include all files / files of this type in containing folder
* include files by same author
etc. -- Colmag

Please. This would be exceptionally useful. -Michael Griffiths

Results window: context menus should be more consistent


It is confusing to the user that similar items in a search results list (e.g. two identical images) would have completely different context menus. The reason appears to be whether the file is saved to disk or is an email attachment in Outlook. However, since the user is working with two identical 'objects', the context options should be the same. -- danwarne

Results window: "Save as" for items selected


When I find an image or document using MSN Desktop Search, I often want to be able to copy it to the desktop or another location, without removing it from its original location. It would be ideal if the context menu that comes up when you righ-click on an item had a "save as" option on it. Although "save as" is a bit of a misnomer, it's certainly something that users would immediately recognise and understand. (The current "copy" and "move" functions do not meet the functionality I am requesting here.) -danwarne

Search-as-you-type in the Outlook, IE, and Explorer toolbars


Another self-explanatory one. -- BGil

Search highlighting in Desktop Search


I would like to make a search highlight (with corresponding option allowing turn on/off this feature) to highlight search words within search results. Now searched words are highlighted by bold font, but background highlighting is more effective moreover it allows to delimit different words, if searching
by several words.I think making same search highlight as Highlight command on MSN Suite toolbar will increase effectiveness of using DS (see this newsgroup post_thread/thread/f78a9def65720a18/4953a56cc0d654b1#4953a56cc0d654b1 )

Search in web pages I've visited


Just like Google desktop, option to search in web pages visited -- Khurram

ANSWER: This was specifically excluded for privacy and security reasons. See DesktopSearchQuestions -- JonathanHardwick

Sean McLeod have wrote extension for Indexing web pages visited

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/microsoft.public.msn.search/browse_thread/thread/c6e326cce57290c2/16ad4a70fe58ec58#16ad4a70fe58ec58
http://www.codeproject.com/internet/MSNDesktopSearchWebCache.asp

Search recursively through email attachments


WDS is not indexing email items (and associated attachments) which are themselves attached to other email items. Copernic is currently doing a more thorough job. -- imunro

Separate Program


* The single thing Copernic has that's better than MSN Search is a better UI. The taskbar UI is great, but for larger searches rendering in Windows Explorer and displaying in IE links very, very well to MSN Search - but it doesn't have the highest useability. A seperate program would allow more flexibility; failing that, ability to "group" ala Windows Explorer would be nice. I want to be able to search for All types, then group according to date, filetype, etc. A seperate program would also allow previes pane, more user-friendly limitations, and a host of other benefits, -Michael Griffiths
* This can also be acheived by integrating it with Windows - AS LONG AS it gets the nice extras you get from a seperate program, such as a preview pane, and a better UI.

Send this page as an Instant Message


It's really, really cool that I don't have to copy and paste the URL to send it to someone in MSN Messenger. But there's a slight problem. I understand that the window this menu item pops up is easy to program, because its already inside Messenger somewhat (I'm talking about this window about sending an IM, where you can choose someone on your contact list, or type an e-mail address). But there's no way to simply insert an URL into a conversation where there are more then two people. --Szajd

Shortcut Overloading


Just like we have function overloading in .NET it would be nice to have shortcut overloading in MSN Deskbar. I mean msn.com is a nice site to view as well as a good site for searching.

I should be able to make a shortcut
@msn,http://www.msn.com
and also a shortcut like
@msn,http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=SMCRT&q=$w
so MSN Deskbar search should automatically load msn search if i provide any parameters and if i dont provide parameters it should go to the MSN Homepage. I believe that's a cool feature for technical audience!!! -- Umer

Shortcut Parsing


For the $s shortcuts to be useful, they should use quotes as atomic identifiers. For Instance:

A shortcut like this:
@map,http://maps.msn.com/home.aspx?strt1=$s&zipc1=$s
When used like this
map "1 Microsoft Way" 98052
Should result in a search like this:
http://maps.msn.com/home.aspx?strt1="1 Microsoft Way"&zipc1=98052
or this:
http://maps.msn.com/home.aspx?strt1=1 Microsoft Way&zipc1=98052
I'm not sure which makes more sense, but currently, you get this:
http://maps.msn.com/home.aspx?strt1="1&zipc1=Microsoft%20Way"

Shortcut Sharing


I use MSN desktop search on multiple machines - I think the shortcuts are very cool, but keeping my shortcuts in sync on multiple machines is cumbersome. It would be nice if my shortcuts were stored on a server and linked to my passport account so that no matter what machine I'm on, my shortcuts are there.

Spell Checker


The web version already has a spell checker. It would be nice to have one in the desktop version too. -- Aviv Raff

Synchronise queries between the IE toolbar and the task bar tool bar.


If I search in the IE toolbar I'd like to see that come into the history for the task bar tool bar. -- blowdart

Unicode support


It seems to be ignoring any folders with unicode characters in their names. -- Mladen.

ANSWER: Everything already is Unicode, except for the word-breakers which are going to be the word-breaker on your system. If you are trying to use an english word-breaker with unicode characters then the results will not always be predictable, as each language/culture has it's own rules for what seperates words, whether case or diacritics are relevant etc. The beta was targetting just english, but all of the infrastructure is in place for full international unicode support when we do the final release.

Windows 2000 UI Improvements


The buttons do not look nice at all in Windows 2000. They are all rough on the edges and flashy. Maybe give theming ability? -- Mladen.

Improve the search results display for music without album art


Right now, if a piece of music doesn't have album art, WDS shows a giant blue "Play" image. You should use the Windows Media Player default album art (I think it's a picture of musical notes) instead because the "Play" image implies that I can click on it and hear my music. I think I spent 2 minutes trying to click on the picture before giving up. -- Zian