If there is a new IE | The Coffeehouse

Keskos

I heard that the team for IE is grouping again, for a possible new IE version. I hope that is not slashdot talk (nonese in other words). However, as a developer first and as a user later I wanted to make the following points. First of all I am well aware of the hype and some zealot talk on the net about Microsoft and its products including IE. As a developer I am fine with IE and I don't have much complaints about it. However there are certain things that I really really want it to be fixed in the new version of IE.

Fixed positioning in CSS
Better support for PNG (Transparency issue)
Fixing Javascript event model.Adding multiple event handlers and making the owner of the new handler the object itself, not the window object.
Having more than 2 connections to the web server, so we can use xmlHTTPRequest more freely.
The ability to detect double click in javascript.

When it comes to W3C's standards etc.. I think you shouldn't embrace everything in the documentations strictly. Developing for Mozilla is a pain in the ass. The W3C's box model is not intuitive at all. For this reason I suggest that IE team keeps the IE's box model.

As a user I would like to see the following new features:

Tabbed browsing, yes you can have this with plugins etc... but I want a well-thought tabbed browsing which is faster than Firefox and more natural.
Better management for cookies, privacy, popup blocking. Popup blocking is not enough, it should be easy to manage which sites I allow to popup and which sites I don't allow.
Finally Internet Options should be made much more usable. Right now it is always a pain to adjust certain options. For example, custom level security window can not be resized and it is very hard to read and check out what to allow and not to allow.
Better security. Just recently there was an unpatched problem and I hope you will be fixing it as soon as possible.
Resizing text even though it is fixed size font.
Having more than 2 simultaneous connections to the web server so we can download two files at the same time.
Download manager.

Another nice thing would be using IE update to propogate .net runtime to millions of desktops. I love .net, but not everybody has it. Put great features and fixes into this new IE and make sure that it installs the new .net runtime environment with it.

I look at Microsoft in a very positive way. I think you have done a great job, but not updating IE pissed me off both as a user and as a developer, but more importantly as a developer. Currently I am using Firefox. I think IE is the second best browser out there among all the major browsers including Safari, but Firefox puts some real competition.

--- Thanks ----

Matt8109

Hmm, Im not so crazy about the tabs, so make them optional.

But one thing I would like to see is a Media Blocker. AOL 9.0SE has a version of this, called the Animated media blocker, which blocks Flash. In some cases I think its extremely useful, especially because of the increasing number of annoying flash ads that fly over the screen. If it could also block embedded video and audio that would cool too.

JParrish

I agree with everything .. plus.. I think they need to add a download manager as part of the browser.

littleguru
<3 Seattle

When adding new stuff to the IE, it would be cool if the UI is kept simple! I don't need this special buttons and stuff...

ZippyV
Fired Up

Feedback about Internet Explorer belongs in the Wiki not the forums.

travis
eo

Matt8109 wrote:
Hmm, Im not so crazy about the tabs, so make them optional.

But one thing I would like to see is a Media Blocker. AOL 9.0SE has a version of this, called the Animated media blocker, which blocks Flash. In some cases I think its extremely useful, especially because of the increasing number of annoying flash ads that fly over the screen. If it could also block embedded video and audio that would cool too.

You'd probably like the FlashBlock extension for Firefox (as I do): http://flashblock.mozdev.org/
(it works much better than the older "Click to Play" extension)

You'd also probably like the Right-click >
block images from [server]" feature that FF has built in too. Very useful for many siezure-inducing-banner-ad hosting servers. (and much easier than editing your HOSTS file every time)

bone

I am very new to Channel 9 so i don't know if this is the right place to put this but:

If there is a new IE...

please fix the bug where paragraphs in the source code are beeing shown randomly....

for example: sometimes when i create a homepage with a lot of sourcecode. (and i am not using any kind of editor... i keep my code very clean! ) it happens that (and this only happens with IE) some alignments just aren't in the right place... now it took me a while but i found out that if i put the code, that is responsible for the alignment, into a single line it suddenly works.

you can imagine what the code looks like, if you delete every format you do to keep the code "readable" like tabs or paragraphs. thanx... greetings from berlin!

cbrousseau

Knowing when the user closes IE

When developping intranet applications, we are often confronted with this situation. Even though we provide our users with a "Quit Application" button, they usually just quit by closing IE altogether. This often means that we must wait for the user's http session to expire before releasing objects the user had locked (ie. Invoices, orders, etc.). Problem is, sometimes other users need to access these same objects.

If there was a way implement an event by script so that IE can inform "the server" when the user closes the IE window. We tried the onUnload() JScript method, but it proved to be unreliable by times.

What would be nice would be nice is to have some sort on "Event" triggered when the window closes with an URL as a parameter. When right before closing the window, IE would contact this URL (with parameters ou course). Of course, IE wouldn't have to wait for a reply from the URL. But this would allow developpers to create listeners on this URL so that we can release the locked objects.

Some might say that we just have to wait for the session to expire. But in some coprporate environments, the session timeout is VERY long...

Shining Arcanine

JParrish wrote:
I agree with everything .. plus.. I think they need to add a download manager as part of the browser.

That is in Longhorn. I'd like to see is a download manager with Bit Torrent support.

cbrousseau wrote:

Knowing when the user closes IE

When developping intranet applications, we are often confronted with this situation. Even though we provide our users with a "Quit Application" button, they usually just quit by closing IE altogether. This often means that we must wait for the user's http session to expire before releasing objects the user had locked (ie. Invoices, orders, etc.). Problem is, sometimes other users need to access these same objects.

If there was a way implement an event by script so that IE can inform "the server" when the user closes the IE window. We tried the onUnload() JScript method, but it proved to be unreliable by times.

What would be nice would be nice is to have some sort on "Event" triggered when the window closes with an URL as a parameter. When right before closing the window, IE would contact this URL (with parameters ou course). Of course, IE wouldn't have to wait for a reply from the URL. But this would allow developpers to create listeners on this URL so that we can release the locked objects.

Some might say that we just have to wait for the session to expire. But in some coprporate environments, the session timeout is VERY long...

I'm not sure if this is in HTTP 1.1 or not. You might want to look through the specification at w3.org for it and if you find it, tell Microsoft to implement it. If you don't, you might want to suggest it to the W3C Standards Organization.

Keskos

Shining Arcanine wrote:

I'm not sure if this is in HTTP 1.1 or not. You might want to look through the specification at w3.org for it and if you find it, tell Microsoft to implement it. If you don't, you might want to suggest it to the W3C Standards Organization.

We don't need to contact to W3C everytime we need a new feature. W3C's SVG takes years to become stable and it is still not complete yet. W3C also doesn't listen to these. I have seen many conversations there, most of the people there are web designers and they want to keep the specification as simple as it is. Our only chance is browser makers, but since mozilla also refuses to do for political reasons, our only chance is Microsoft. They will probably follow Microsoft when people start to depend on it. Remember xmlHTTPRequest object? It is not a standard, but Mozilla also implemented it because it is useful, W3C refuses to come up with such features because the organization is geared towards web designers, not developers.

W3C is not something we have to worship, they have to listen to us, if they don't then we should pressure the browser makers. Standard zealots try to make our lives harder for political reasons, we don't need politics in software development and web design. We should focus on the technology and unfortunately W3C become too political.

Shining Arcanine

Keskos wrote:

Shining Arcanine wrote:
I'm not sure if this is in HTTP 1.1 or not. You might want to look through the specification at w3.org for it and if you find it, tell Microsoft to implement it. If you don't, you might want to suggest it to the W3C Standards Organization.

We don't need to contact to W3C everytime we need a new feature. W3C's SVG takes years to become stable and it is still not complete yet. W3C also doesn't listen to these. I have seen many conversations there, most of the people there are web designers and they want to keep the specification as simple as it is. Our only chance is browser makers, but since mozilla also refuses to do for political reasons, our only chance is Microsoft. They will probably follow Microsoft when people start to depend on it. Remember xmlHTTPRequest object? It is not a standard, but Mozilla also implemented it because it is useful, W3C refuses to come up with such features because the organization is geared towards web designers, not developers.

W3C is not something we have to worship, they have to listen to us, if they don't then we should pressure the browser makers. Standard zealots try to make our lives harder for political reasons, we don't need politics in software development and web design. We should focus on the technology and unfortunately W3C become too political.

The Internet has become too fragmented with non-standard this and non-standard that. If it isn't approved by the W3C, I would prefer to not to see it become a feature at all.

By the way, standards are meant to make lives easier. With them, you should not have to accomedate this person's variation of the spec and that person's variation of the spec, just the spec.

jamie

Yes Virginia - there IS a new IE

http://news.com.com/Microsoft+appoints+a+new+IE+evangelist/2100-1032_3-5243583.html?tag=nefd.top

..so it's not IF its WHEN Smiley

Keskos

Currently almost every browser has some non-standard feature already, especially for javascript and DOM stuff. Non of the browsers are standard complaint so far. I don't see people who talk too much about standards worrying really about standards. Some people initially started to talk about it for legitimate reasons, netscape 4 issue, but later on anti-Microsoft crowd embraced that notion to bash Microsoft, and in many cases they are not fair at all. To me IE and Mozilla are both great browsers, but not Opera, yet to standard zealots say only IE is not fine and the rest is ok. So we should stop worrying about religious things and start worrying about improving the lives of web designers and developers. If some anti-Microsoft people do not want to use some feature in the IE, let them not use it. This is not about politics, this is about technology.

Slapo

Matt8109 wrote:
Hmm, Im not so crazy about the tabs, so make them optional.

But one thing I would like to see is a Media Blocker. AOL 9.0SE has a version of this, called the Animated media blocker, which blocks Flash. In some cases I think its extremely useful, especially because of the increasing number of annoying flash ads that fly over the screen. If it could also block embedded video and audio that would cool too.

So just don't install the plug-ins and you do not have to block anything.

Shining Arcanine

Keskos wrote:
Currently almost every browser has some non-standard feature already, especially for javascript and DOM stuff. Non of the browsers are standard complaint so far. I don't see people who talk too much about standards worrying really about standards. Some people initially started to talk about it for legitimate reasons, netscape 4 issue, but later on anti-Microsoft crowd embraced that notion to bash Microsoft, and in many cases they are not fair at all. To me IE and Mozilla are both great browsers, but not Opera, yet to standard zealots say only IE is not fine and the rest is ok. So we should stop worrying about religious things and start worrying about improving the lives of web designers and developers. If some anti-Microsoft people do not want to use some feature in the IE, let them not use it. This is not about politics, this is about technology.

Are you insinuating that I'm bashing Microsoft?

I defend Microsoft against Linux/Firefox/etc Fans...

And yes, defending Microsoft against Firefox fans is interesting, especially when there isn't much to say in Microsoft's defense.

By the way, improving the lives of web designers and developers means abiding by the standards which Microsoft created along with the other members of the W3C...

john259

I'd just like to be able to consistently save web pages that I'm viewing to my hard disk. In IE6 (on WinXP SP1, fully up to date with patches), most of the time when I try to save a web page in IE it goes and downloads all the files again, then crashes out with a resounding "boom". If the save does appear to work, a lot of the time when I re-open the page from the hard disk copy there's nothing there. This is a major pain. Is all this misery a universal problem with IE6, or just my computer? So I use Netscape 7.1 instead, which always (touch wood) saves pages immediately and properly. It's also much safer from the security point of view of course, and quite a bit faster. I haven't had any problems with incompatible web sites with Netscape, and it has its own built-in pop-up blocker which saves the very small amount of labour installing the Google Toolbar. I tried Opera, Mozilla, etc but I don't like their tabs (very personal, that one) and their incompatibility with most online banking and e-commerce sites. John

bsilby

I like IE and the Mozilla browsers, though I have to say that Mozilla is very slow for the dhtml animation I use in my work.

The funny observation I make when people talk about standards is this:
IE has about 95% market share and is accused of containing non-standards.

Mozilla is only about 2% market share and is championed as adhering to standards.

Now, this seems odd to me. I would have thought that by definition, standards would have refered to the one that is in highest use. So perhaps w3 et al should consider IE to be the industry standard, and the others need to alter their methodologies in order to move closer to the way IE does things.

Just throwing a cat among the pigeons. Now I'm gonna duck for cover Smiley

Brent.

Shining Arcanine

bsilby wrote:
Now, this seems odd to me. I would have thought that by definition, standards would have refered to the one that is in highest use. So perhaps w3 et al should consider IE to be the industry standard, and the others need to alter their methodologies in order to move closer to the way IE does things.

IE should be changed so that it is compliant with the W3C specification as Microsoft made it along with other W3C members.

I find it ironic that while Microsoft makes the standards as a member of the W3C, its own software fails to comply with them.

Keskos

Shining Arcanine wrote:

Are you insinuating that I'm bashing Microsoft?

I defend Microsoft against Linux/Firefox/etc Fans...

And yes, defending Microsoft against Firefox fans is interesting, especially when there isn't much to say in Microsoft's defense.

By the way, improving the lives of web designers and developers means abiding by the standards which Microsoft created along with the other members of the W3C...

I wasn't talking about you specifically, but if you think you are bashing Microsoft, what can I say?

Also web designers and developers clearly do not agree with you, because all web sites I have seen work fine with IE, but not with other browsers.

I hope you also go to mozillazine and bugzilla and push them to fix their bugs too, if you are really worried about standards and improving the lives of designers and developers. By the way, if Opera wants to stay in the game it should support javascript and DOM as good as IE does. It should also fix float:left css problems.

I also find it odd that with 93-95% market share, IE is already the standard. This is just like TCP/IP. Standard bodies may not be relevant every time and shouldn't be relevant if they become too political. Maybe while Microsoft was implementing the standards, they changed the model just to piss of Microsoft so that they can accuse Microsoft not complying with the standards? There are many number of people on W3C who hate Microsoft and openly talk about it. Maybe they are the ones who should be questioned.

Shining Arcanine

Keskos wrote:
I wasn't talking about you specifically, but if you think you are bashing Microsoft, what can I say?

I just wanted to verify that.

Keskos wrote:
Also web designers and developers clearly do not agree with you, because all web sites I have seen work fine with IE, but not with other browsers.

Many "web designers and developers" do not know the proper way to do their jobs. I can't blame them as schools are still teaching people to use the web equivalent of a excel document to position things in their websites...

Keskos wrote:
I hope you also go to mozillazine and bugzilla and push them to fix their bugs too, if you are really worried about standards and improving the lives of designers and developers. By the way, if Opera wants to stay in the game it should support javascript and DOM as good as IE does. It should also fix float:left css problems.

They are doing what they should be doing while Microsoft hasn't since August 2001. For years they have given an much more of an indication that something was being done in Gecko's development than Microsoft has given an indication that something was being done in Mosaic's development.

Keskos wrote:
I also find it odd that with 93-95% market share, IE is already the standard. This is just like TCP/IP. Standard bodies may not be relevant every time and shouldn't be relevant if they become too political. Maybe while Microsoft was implementing the standards, they changed the model just to piss of Microsoft so that they can accuse Microsoft not complying with the standards? There are many number of people on W3C who hate Microsoft and openly talk about it. Maybe they are the ones who should be questioned.

When you say they, you do realize that Microsoft is included in that as Microsoft is a member of the W3C. Why would Microsoft change something to hurt itself? You're making as much sense as Internet Explorer's box model.

By the way, Microsoft proposed much of the specifications that Internet Explorer has no/broken support for. If Microsoft's own specifications at the W3C can't be followed, whose can?

sbc
GW R/Me

The problem with trying to emulate IE is that if you want a browser to behave the same as IE, all the quirks and bugs it has will also have to be implemented.

Yet, when there is a standard that a browser can head towards, it is a lot easier to develop for. Other browser couldn't work the same as IE, as it has some features that would not be easily implemented (ActiveX, VBScript). Also, having standards that are agreed upon by many companies (Microsoft included) should really be implemented, to make web development and interoperability easier.

An alternative would be if Microsoft opened up how IE and its 'extensions' worked, and how the rendering engine works (quirks and all), maybe browsers could follow those standards.

Would IE even have the market share it has if it wasn't bundled with Windows? Some say it gained dominance through superior technology, but others believe it was simply because it was bundled with Windows, and users did not even bother checking out the alternatives. It's too late now to find out the real reason for the dominance.

IE6 probably was the best browser at the time, but several years have passed since then - other browser developers have updated their software, but Internet Explorer has remained static (except for many security fixes).

I also thnk that Windows/Office/IE would actually be far better software if it did not have such a large market share - as there is little incentive to improve the products. Even 60% share may make a big difference.

bsilby

Keskos wrote:
You first said
I just don't accept the false claims that Opera is better than IE, because it is not.

I agree. Opera can't do nearly as much as IE and Mozilla. It falls over on anything but the simplest javascript&dhtml.

I've been waiting for about 3 years for Opera to improve so that my dhtml games will work with it. I'm still waiting. The games have always worked brilliantly with IE, and they work (but slowly) with Mozilla. Until Opera catches up a few years, I'll never entertain the thought that it is better than IE.

Brent.

Breeze
I'am i.

plus the function@safe is enough and tell people not to attack IE ,other ,made it faster of improve it self

dele

BETTER PRINTING SUPPORT, PLEASE!

There is not only webdesigner/developpers who need flashy screen design, there is also business apps where REPORTING is an issue - also ON PAPER. Acrobat would not be so popular if HTML/CSS would care more about printing.

I am using ASP.NET and I would give a lot if I don't have to think about using PDF libs or the like to even get simple things like page headers/footer or keeping a table row together on one page.

For this the following features need full support as specified by CSS2:
* position:fixed
* page-break- after/before/inside
* chapter13: paged media (paper orientation, margins)

In addition to position:fixed the paged media CR for CSS3 holds some nice ideas. I wonder if we have a chance to see this in the next version of IE even if the CR does not come from MS (Mr. Lie should better get Operas JS&CSS to work than writing about features two generations down Wink

sbc
GW R/Me

They do not need to implement all of the standards (especially those in draft), but they should at a minimum support CSS2.1 and PNG and DOM level 2. Also if there is a standard for doing things (like XForms) Microsoft should use that rather than develop their own non-standard, Microsoft only technology.

It is the addition of proprietary HTML/CSS features that people are against, not adoptation of standards that other browser already support. After all Microsoft is a member of the W3c so helped developed the standards.