IE Feedback Fest

I'd feel a lot more assured if this very site did not have so many glitches in non-IE browsers. Moz has funny out-of-place hr's ( suppose that's what they are), and on some pages there's a large horizontal scroll. That one looks like the IE proprietary float model is behind it.

Op7 is even worse. Those videos on some pages are apparently crashing Op7 repeatedly, but it's a slow crash. First the keyboard goes dead, and then boom. On top of that, the flat nav up top is broken up a bit, both in Op7 and Moz. And that's just the display flaws I noticed in ten minutes!

I'm not so sure that a metatag switch can correct major issues like the float model, because so many sites have now been designed to accomodate it. A couple of years ago it would have worked but now it will mean writing basically two different designs into each CSS page as long as the old IE's are still around. Wonderful.

I wrote an article for Digitalweb back then, explaining the issue and how it could be switched like this, but there was only deafening silence from Microsoft. Now the window has passed, leaving no easy way to do it.

Then there's all the other things like auto-expanding boxes, the 3px bug, and on and on. Did you know that Opera has caved and started emulating  IE's float model? I see it getting worse, not better. I do make money thru my knowledge of  IE workarounds, but I don't enjoy seeing people spend extra cash or end up frustrated as hell. Most of them just give up, y'know.

Sorry for the ascerbic tone, but I have been dealing with these issues for several years and it's getting kinda old.

With all due respect, it's not the non-IE browsers that have the bugs. Enlightened coders these days always design a site to work well in Mozilla and Op7. Once the site works in standards compliant browsers, IE gets various hacks and fixes to force it into compliance. If you try to work it the other way I assure you a really lousy time. I have seen this cycle over and over, and it's pathetic to witness the frustration and anger of a newbie who made their first site in CSS (using IE), only to walk into a buzzsaw when trying to "fix" the "problems" in non-IE browsers. Of course you guys are not newbies so I suppose you will be able to bull thru the difficulties eventually no matter how you go about it, but my way will drastically reduce the development time. I must admit, being able to finally express these facts to actual Microsoft people is most healing! I feel like assisting now. If y'all need working tips on how to go about it, just let me know, okay?

DouglasH wrote:

From a developer perspective, if given a choice on CSS support especially 2 and above. What would you rather have.

Support for a known broken spec (better worded as a poorly written spec with implementation sorely lacking in most of the spec, and several areas in question at that) aka css 2.0

Or support for the replacement to 2.0, 2.1 and the and 3.0 specs??

I wasn't aware that the specs were broken. I do know that one or two issues came up regarding the CSS2 specs, such as requiring a width on a float. This will be changed in CSS2.1 so that widthless floats "shrinkwrap" content. Does this mean that the specs are "broken"? I don't think so.

DouglasH wrote:

While granted there is several poorly implemented features of 2.0 in IE that have become standard.

Yes, like the widthless float issue, and I agree that IE got it right in that case. But consider the way IE always expands boxes to contain content. That has the effect of destroying advanced float layouts when someone sticks in something big like a long url. I sure hope that does not become the defacto "standard".

Then there's the IE float model, that CHANGES the float specs, depending on wether or not the float containing box has "layout", whatever that is. Is this what we need in the specs? Variability? Floats are hard enough to grasp without adding weird and unnecessary behaviors. Besides that, the IE float model actually varies between IE5.5 and IE6. That's right, even IE itself is not consistent on the way it violates the specs.

Then there's the 3px space that IE adds next to floats without a word from the specs. That one "bug" alone causes more headaches than all other IE issues combined! There was NO conceivable justification to have that space, but there it is.

DouglasH wrote:

Others have expressed the need for support of SVG. I would ask which version.  1.2 is effectively becomeing a language host and far outstepping what SVG was going to do (imo)  almost to the point that it may replace what HTML does.

That's great, but beside the point. Are we supposed to just give up any hope of correcting our current web enviroment in the hope that a new technology will make it all better?

DouglasH wrote:

Dare says one thing correctly implementing specs for specs sake doesn't always accomplish the goal set forth.

You mean like having a set of specs that we can count on? We do have that, but the majority browser violates the specs in several key areas, making the use of CSS a nightmare for newbies. The point of having standards was to avoid this very thing, but IE makes a mockery of that goal.

DouglasH wrote:

The Web community and the w3 have acknowledge the weakness in css 2.0 and have redirected to make the 2.1 and 3.0 specs I believe it would be better for MS to focus on implementing those even in early technical previews.

I would prefer that IE first get the specs we do have correct. Sure, all the new functionality in CSS3 is great, but if the same old spec violations continue it won't really matter what extra stuff is added to IE.

DouglasH wrote:

Not to mention what is the direction that w3 is going.  there seems to be dicord between the html team and the xml teams.

Bad mouthing the W3C does not excuse Microsoft for violating the specs.

I have discovered that Opera 7 can't deal with this forum correctly. Since no other forum I visit has caused trouble, I assume it is some kind of proprietary code messing things up. This is the kind of thing that results in dislike for Microsoft programs. I want to visit this site in the browser of my choice, but to avoid looking like a clumsy newbie I must resort to IE. Opera 7 obeys the specs, and if this site did, there would be no problem.

All I ask is that you guys take a good look at this page:
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html

..and then explain the logic behind that implementation. Were they really trying to avoid having CSS newbies see their text ram up against their floats? If that is the case, why wasn't it ever considered that people CAN learn to use margins on floats? Hard-wiring in that space was not only a violation, but not real bright, IMHO.

If instead, that was not the rationale for the 3px space, then what was it? I can't think of a single advantage, but I can provide quite a few horror stories that are directly caused by this issue.

That one little 3px space is a total nightmare for coders trying to use floats in more that the most simplistic way. Please tell me it will not be in Longhorn, okay?

While you're at it, it wouldn't hurt to get rid of the "has layout" deal, or at least explain to the public why you have it in the first place. I and many other people spent YEARS groping toward an explaination for all the weird behaviors and bugs caused by having (and not having) "layout". We had no idea at the time that it was a deliberate implementation! 

I've looked and looked, but I can't find that property anywhere in the CSS specs. Considering what a massive impact it has had on innocent coders, it would have been nice to be clearly told what was really going on.

In short, we have been left in the dark so long, and have found so many buried bodies, that it's going to take more than talk about "..supporting what we believe makes sense for our customers.." to make us come around.

Stevex said it, we want consistency, which was the exact purpose of the W3C. If Microsoft feels that standards are only for when it suits them, then why are they a member of the W3C? Why not drop out and be honest about what they are doing?

I'd be happy to, Dave. My considerable experience with real-world CSS issues is available any time. I"m not an MS hater, despite the tone I sometimes take on my site. I must say that even this preliminary outreach from MS is startling after what came before.

I will in future reserve my opinions to myself, and look forward to big improvements in IE, whatever they may be.

Well, I do have one opinion left. I think one of the worst causes of MS-bashing was the faliure to get any feedback from MS on any serious questions. The fact that this has ended has gone far to reduce my personal animosity. Let's hope it becomes a habit, eh?