MVPs | The Coffeehouse

irascian
Irascible Ian

I've got to admit I've had very few dealings with MVPs - I see the occasional "MVP" sig on the odd newsgroup but I'm not really aware of the service they provide or the popularity they apparently have that earns them the title.

But I've become a LOT more aware of them through the blogs that have been posted as a result of the MVP summit. And I have to say the results are not pretty.

If I read one more blog boasting about how "fantastic" everything they saw at the MVP summit was but that "I can't say any more because it's NDA" (often when it isn't and they're describing the same sessions that anybody at PDC saw) I swear I'll club someone over the head with a copy of the P&P Performance and Scalability Guide. The signal to noise ratio on these blogs is as close to zero as it's possible to get and these people are supposed to be "valued professionals"???!

I think I've read three blog postings about "Spang" boasting about how wonderful it is but that they can't say any more about what "it" is because of NDA.

Excuse me - what exactly is the point of your blog post other than to say "Look at me! Look at me! Nyaa nyaaa nyaa". I fail to see how this in any way promotes Microsoft or its products.

Quite aside from the fact that if "Spang" or whatever the hell it's called is under NDA you shouldn't even be mentioning it by codename.

Using blogs as the criteria MVPs come across as a bunch of rather superior "We know secrets you don't" sad fan boys of the worst possible kind. People, frankly, to be avoided at all costs!

Someone tell me I'm wrong!

billh
call -141

And then they have the arrogance to pretty much stick that "MVP" label on every single thing they write, so YOU know they are an MVP and don't YOU forget it (check out StaceyW's posts sometime around here)....but it's true they really don't have a grasp on what they are doing, but rather keep regurgitating other people's thoughts.

Tom Servo
W-hat?

You know, if I get all the insider info and direct lines to developers like these MVPs get, I'd be able and willing to play Captain Smartass on the Usenet, too. But since public newsgroups are a royal pain in the (I need to watch my language) due the free-for-all nature (no moderation or user identification whatsoever), I surely won't make the effort towards anything like a MVP.

Charles
Welcome Change

Apparently, Manip has never met an MVP... They tend to be unusually knowledgable and passionate about our technologies. They also tend to be some of our harshest critics, which is a very good thing since they help us make our products better by providing feedback both from themselves and from the community in which they are very active contributors.

C

Manip

If you want MVP next year all you have to do is scout newsgroups and post replies to easy questions using almost direct quotes from Microsoft Knowledge Base articles..

That is after all what most MVPs do; if you ever talk to one they come across as mindless zombies and might have well be replaced by bots.

Manip

Charles wrote:
Apparently, Manip has never met an MVP...

Actually I have. Before I met and talk with a couple I had some respect for the label and assumed they would be "skilled" but now they are no better than Network Admins with a MCSE that think they own the place because of it... Where in actual facts the engineers without said qualification can match or out-perform them most of the time.

Not to mention MVP is very political, if you network well with people from Microsoft or closely tied, you increase your chances...

Tom Servo
W-hat?

I agree with Manip. Actually, the last couple of months, all interaction with MVPs on the Usenet consisted mostly reading replies that are pretty much quoted out of a related FAQ. That's really bright.

Tensor
Im in yr house upgrading yr family

irascian wrote:
I swear I'll club someone over the head with a copy of the P&P Performance and Scalability Guide.

Use the Smart Client Architecture Guide instead. Amusingly, it is abreviated to SCAG.

Manip

Here is a quote from just some random mailing list (direct quote, no edited out text):

MVP wrote:
Hi F,

> Well, there are a lot of Word spelling dictionary add on packages. All of
> the ones I have played with install a .lex file of there word bank. how are
> they able to create the lex file? if they can do it, I would assume that it
> is possible for me to do it too. How are they able the extend Word's
> spelling dictionary without using the custom dictionaries function in Word?
>
Start here.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;262605

Cindy Meister

irascian
Irascible Ian

Tensor wrote:

Use the Smart Client Architecture Guide instead. Amusingly, it is abreviated to SCAG.

Ah yes, but does it run it to over 1000 pages the way the Perf and Scalability Guide does - I want something big and heavy! [6]

marteaga

I'm an MVP but don't boast about it other than have it on my blog page. For those that went to the summit and blogged about it afterwards saying they can't say anything because of NDA then they are just 'show boating' that they are MVPs and my take is probably didn't get much out of the summit other than free food and drinks.

A lot of MVPs I deal with are some of the smartest people I have meet from all over the world. We have helped improve the Compact Framework not just by regurgitating things in FAQs but by giving constructive criticism from real world experience that does not come from FAQs. Some of us have even started open source projects (OpenNETCF.org) to try to fill in some of the gaps from V1 of .NETCF and many things in the open source project have actually made it to V2 of .NETCF. Sure, we still post in newsgroups to help people out, but some of the people that need help either don't know where to find the information, are really stuck on a problem or are just too lazy to search to help themselves. For the people too lazy I usually give them a link for them to go read themselves. If it's a genuine problem that the user is really stuck on and we know the solution or know where to find the info why not help out?

I'm sure there are some MVPs who don't have the appropriate knowledge but you have that everywhere. I have meet MCSDs who don't have a clue about using events and delegates in C# and I have worked with sales people who don't sell a thing but are still called a 'Senior Sales Consultant'.

You get this sort of thing everywhere and not just the MVP program.

irascian
Irascible Ian

marteaga wrote:
I'm an MVP but don't boast about it other than have it on my blog page.
You get this sort of thing everywhere and not just the MVP program.

Thanks for popping in to provide some balance.

Nice blog page by the way!

Zeo
Channel 9 :)

I'm an MVP and I met up with you at PDC. I also don't like it when other MVP claim "NDA" all over the place. Sure I saw roadmaps and foward looking concepts BUT from several of the summits I've been too most of the NDA stuff never ships....its more research based.

I dunno, being an MVP isn't all that its cracked up to be. I help many of the community members and I really seek to help as many people as I can.

irascian
Irascible Ian

Zeo wrote:

I'm an MVP and I met up with you at PDC. I also don't like it when other MVP claim "NDA" all over the place. Sure I saw roadmaps and foward looking concepts BUT from several of the summits I've been too most of the NDA stuff never ships....its more research based.

I dunno, being an MVP isn't all that its cracked up to be. I help many of the community members and I really seek to help as many people as I can.

Hi Ian.

Yeah I nearly mentioned you as a disclaimer to my general dissing of MVPs, but where would be the fun in that? Wink

Seriously I think you're the only MVP I've ever spoken to in real life. I was just wondering what was more typical - someone like you or someone like those blogging endlessly about NDAs.

In all honesty I don't care where the information comes from if someone's helping out in the newsgroups - if it comes from an FAQ who cares, if it helps someone? I'm just concerned at how many blogs I've read that have MVP plastered all over them and say nothing other than "Woo hoo. NDA. NDA. NDA." Makes me want to use the comment feature to say "PLEASE get yourself a life you sad f***" (I'm mean like that Wink

)

ZippyV
Fired Up

Paul Thurrot thinks the same thing:
"Yeah, I'm an MVP (Most Valued Professional, for Windows Server). And I have to say it's a bit of an issue for me. On the one hand, I respect and protect the close relationship I have with the software giant. On the other hand, I'm a bit put off by the imperial and entitled attitude many MVPs have: Some of these people honestly believe they're "better" than others, and I have a problem with that."

AdamKinney
Agent of Change

I know a fair amount of MVPs, more actually than I thought, I learned while working the ch9 booth at the MVP summit. I can tell you that just about every one I know is someone you want to listen to talk, as they are normally full of information and they want to share it.

+1 for MVPs

Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

irascian wrote:

Tensor wrote:
Use the Smart Client Architecture Guide instead. Amusingly, it is abreviated to SCAG.

Ah yes, but does it run it to over 1000 pages the way the Perf and Scalability Guide does - I want something big and heavy!

Would the New Nelson Japanese-English Character Dictionary suit your needs? It's over 1600 pages and comes in a cardboard box. Smiley

EDIT: Watch us try to up each other on who owns the thickest book. Tongue Out

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

Ian, I fear you may have over generalised on this one.

I'm sure MVP's are just like any group, they have good and not so good ambassadors.

As for NDA's, they are painful things. When watching a presentation it's difficult to know what is common knowledge and what isn't if it's all new to you.

(Anyway, I'm just a fluffy man, perhaps because I'm playing Motorcycle - As the Rush comes at a volume that isn't healthy! Hmmm, fancy any Ferry Corsten anyone? Yep, I LOVE dance music almost as much as my Wife!)

Ambrose

irascian wrote:
In all honesty I don't care where the information comes from if someone's helping out in the newsgroups - if it comes from an FAQ who cares, if it helps someone? I'm just concerned at how many blogs I've read that have MVP plastered all over them and say nothing other than "Woo hoo. NDA. NDA. NDA." Makes me want to use the comment feature to say "PLEASE get yourself a life you sad f***" (I'm mean like that )

Says the guy who clearly spends a lot of time on Channel9....

Just stop and ask yourself what your motivation was for starting/continuing this thread. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

You have to understand what the MVP program is and how people become MVPs. In essence, it is an extension of PSS. In fact, the url for our site is a (quasi) sub domain of support.microsoft.com. The reason people are awarded MVP is that they have spent a fair amount of time supporting (in one way or another) Microsoft's products. It is in no way a certification.

The reason Microsoft values the MVP program (and us) is that we are a key part of their product suport story. It really is a good strategy, and other companies are/have been picking up on it and emulating it. The basic idea is to promote and encourage community support.

Microsoft also uses the MVPs as a key feedback channel. They figure that we are a representative and, more importantly, manageable subset of their customers, and that we know the customers' pain points. And both of these are true.

Finally, there is the assumption that we are "credible." This will be true to varying degrees, as some have already pointed out. But in as much as this program is concerned, credibility is not the key factor in awarding MVPs. Surely, it is a concern, but it is not, or rather, has not been the key factor. To illustrate this point, Microsoft has been giving away certification test vouchers to MVPs for years now, trying to get their MVPs to become certified. So it seems that Microsoft is in fact concerned about our being credible, but it is also clear that credibility (or certification) is not a key criterion for becoming an MVP.

Now that you, I hope, understand the MVP program a little better, I hope you can more clearly see why there might be such disparity in perceived expertise between various MVPs. It is chiefly an appreciation award for community effort and not necessarily an indication of competence, though one hopes an MVP will be competent in his or her product.

As for the NDA thing, well, the whole point of the NDA would be to keep things under wrap, but at the same time, generating a little excitement around Microsoft technologies, even if the details are vague, is not necessarily a bad thing. Microsoft is not always clear, even to us, what is and is not under NDA, so most of us tend to err on the side of conservatism and not reveal things that technically might be okay to reveal (hence our sometimes talking about things being NDA that are not, in fact, under an NDA). You see, things are rarely as black and white as they may seem superficially...

AndyC

Sven Groot wrote:

Would the New Nelson Japanese-English Character Dictionary suit your needs? It's over 1600 pages and comes in a cardboard box.

I find the complete Windows Server 2003 Resource Kit (with cardboard case) is ideal for this sort of situation. Maybe that's the BOFH in me...

irascian
Irascible Ian

Ambrose wrote:

irascian wrote: In all honesty I don't care where the information comes from if someone's helping out in the newsgroups - if it comes from an FAQ who cares, if it helps someone? I'm just concerned at how many blogs I've read that have MVP plastered all over them and say nothing other than "Woo hoo. NDA. NDA. NDA." Makes me want to use the comment feature to say "PLEASE get yourself a life you sad f***" (I'm mean like that )

Says the guy who clearly spends a lot of time on Channel9....

I spend a lot of my evenings and weekends flitting in and out of here yes. If you'd actually spent some time around here you'd see that I've several times admitted I have no life. I KNOW I have no life. Sadly very few of the MVPs blogging about their summit appear to be in the same position.

Ambrose wrote:

Just stop and ask yourself what your motivation was for starting/continuing this thread. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

You're giving your own biased opinion and claiming to speak "for the rest of us". I suggest you look at the responses to this thread so far. Oh look, you're in the minority with your opinion and yet claim to speak for "the rest of us". Isn't that a rather arrogant attitude to take? Let me guess - you're an MVP! Tongue Out

In truth my posting was a genuine comment to get feedback from "friends" on the boards here as to what their experience with MVPs was. Maybe the blogs have been a bit quiet the last week or so since the PDC furour but the reality is that once you've read one MVP bragging about NDA you really don't need to real a whole lot more. I love the way those with thin skins get all defensive about their bragging rights, but was amused to read a blog entry just after I posted here that said all future "NDA bragging" posts on aspnet.blogs would not be tolerated. Obviously my "Obvious motivation" (please enlighten me as I haven't a clue what you're talking about!) is someone else's too.

Ambrose wrote:

You have to understand what the MVP program is ....It is in no way a certification.

Did anyone say it was? You seem to be jumping to conclusions that aren't warranted, just because somebody in this thread made a comparison with the knowlege of the "average" MVP with the "average" MCSD. That's a conclusion that frankly isn't warranted.

Ambrose wrote:

The reason Microsoft values the MVP program (and us) is that we are a key part of their product suport story. It really is a good strategy, and other companies are/have been picking up on it and emulating it. The basic idea is to promote and encourage community support.

Good to hear. But the message isn't getting through to those of us that don't hang out in newsgroups. The message that IS getting through to those of us that read a lot of blogs is coming across rather differently. Hence my post!

Ambrose wrote:

Finally, there is the assumption that we are "credible." This will be true to varying degrees, as some have already pointed out. But in as much as this program is concerned, credibility is not the key factor in awarding MVPs. Surely, it is a concern, but it is not, or rather, has not been the key factor. To illustrate this point, Microsoft has been giving away certification test vouchers to MVPs for years now, trying to get their MVPs to become certified. So it seems that Microsoft is in fact concerned about our being credible, but it is also clear that credibility (or certification) is not a key criterion for becoming an MVP.

Where does that assumption come from? And whose assumption is it? Not yours I hope, as some of your other assumptions made in your post don't stand up. I think what scares me the most about your post is the use of the word "credibility" in the same breath as "certification". Any of those of us who've sat certification exams know that they certainly aren't "credible" (Before you ask I have no title other than MCP - I have eleven exam passes but took exams in specific subjects for "fun" or to test myself in a new area, not to gain a certification with a four letter acronym that I personally see, based on my experience of others with those certifications, as pretty worthless as a measure of expertise in the real world).

Ambrose wrote:

As for the NDA thing, well, the whole point of the NDA would be to keep things under wrap, but at the same time, generating a little excitement around Microsoft technologies, even if the details are vague, is not necessarily a bad thing. Microsoft is not always clear, even to us, what is and is not under NDA, so most of us tend to err on the side of conservatism and not reveal things that technically might be okay to reveal (hence our sometimes talking about things being NDA that are not, in fact, under an NDA). You see, things are rarely as black and white as they may seem superficially...

I come back to my original point - what does boasting a code name and then saying "I can't say anything. NDA" actually achieve? Nowhere have you contradicted my original claim that these blog postings are all noise and no signal.

irascian
Irascible Ian

There's an amusing postscript to this in that the original "spang" post was from Phil Winstanley.

I regard him as one of the good guys (based only on an excellent bullshit-free presentation he did at a Developer! Developer! Developer! day) His "spang" entry appears to have been posted as a joke. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he was as fed up reading showboating blog entries as I was and decided to have some fun with it.

Ambrose

irascian wrote:
I spend a lot of my evenings and weekends flitting in and out of here yes. If you'd actually spent some time around here you'd see that I've several times admitted I have no life. I KNOW I have no life. Sadly very few of the MVPs blogging about their summit appear to be in the same position.

Seems kinda silly, then, to be admonishing others to get a life, then...

irascian wrote:

Ambrose wrote:
Just stop and ask yourself what your motivation was for starting/continuing this thread. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

You're giving your own biased opinion and claiming to speak "for the rest of us". I suggest you look at the responses to this thread so far. Oh look, you're in the minority with your opinion and yet claim to speak for "the rest of us". Isn't that a rather arrogant attitude to take? Let me guess - you're an MVP!

The rest of us being MVPs who've noticed your post. What is it if not jealousy? Oh.. wait.. yeah.. it's a purely altruistic motivation about blog noise that's got you so riled up. Tongue Out

irascian wrote:

Ambrose wrote:
You have to understand what the MVP program is ....It is in no way a certification.
Did anyone say it was? You seem to be jumping to conclusions that aren't warranted, just because somebody in this thread made a comparison with the knowlege of the "average" MVP with the "average" MCSD. That's a conclusion that frankly isn't warranted.

There has been speculation in this thread as to the credibility of MVPs. Just trying to help you understand...

irascian wrote:

Ambrose wrote:

The reason Microsoft values the MVP program (and us) is that we are a key part of their product suport story. It really is a good strategy, and other companies are/have been picking up on it and emulating it. The basic idea is to promote and encourage community support.

Good to hear. But the message isn't getting through to those of us that don't hang out in newsgroups. The message that IS getting through to those of us that read a lot of blogs is coming across rather differently. Hence my post!

Well, if you had done any kind of due diligence into the MVP program before defaming all MVPs in one grand flame, you'd probably have gleaned exactly the information I was providing. It's all out there on the WWW.

irascian wrote:

Ambrose wrote:
Finally, there is the assumption that we are "credible." This will be true to varying degrees, as some have already pointed out. But in as much as this program is concerned, credibility is not the key factor in awarding MVPs. Surely, it is a concern, but it is not, or rather, has not been the key factor. To illustrate this point, Microsoft has been giving away certification test vouchers to MVPs for years now, trying to get their MVPs to become certified. So it seems that Microsoft is in fact concerned about our being credible, but it is also clear that credibility (or certification) is not a key criterion for becoming an MVP.

Where does that assumption come from? And whose assumption is it? Not yours I hope, as some of your other assumptions made in your post don't stand up. I think what scares me the most about your post is the use of the word "credibility" in the same breath as "certification". Any of those of us who've sat certification exams know that they certainly aren't "credible" (Before you ask I have no title other than MCP - I have eleven exam passes but took exams in specific subjects for "fun" or to test myself in a new area, not to gain a certification with a four letter acronym that I personally see, based on my experience of others with those certifications, as pretty worthless as a measure of expertise in the real world).

The assumption is on Microsoft's part. Again, some jot or tittle of due diligence would have gone a long way. Here.. I'll spoon feed: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/MVPINTRO. Note the "credible" word. It's assumed that if you've spent so much time helping others with a particular technology that you will be credible, perhaps even an expert. But note how the focus is very clearly and broadly on that MVPs help others. The award is for the effort. There are no exams we have to take to get the MVP award; it's just assumed we know what we're talking about (as demonstrated through our extensive support of the product area).

As for your certification comments, yours is a much broader question of education and certifications in general. The key thing is that the certifications are a rather objective way to say that you, at the very least, passed a test on the subject matter and, at the most, do in fact know your stuff. The truth will be somewhere in between the extremes depending on the individual. But in the end, a certification is more of a guarantee than not having a certification, regardless of how good you think you are.

Ken Cox [MVP]

It's a hoax hatched by some ASPInsiders to see how much "buzz" they can create over a non-existent product.

I don't suppose they'll stop the childishness until they've tricked Paul Thurrott or Mary Jo Foley into mentioning them.

StevenSmith
Agent Smith

Aw, c'mon, Ken, don't say that.