Developing for XBOX 360 | The Coffeehouse

PeterH
Iomesus

Is it possible to develop games for the XBox 360 without buying the development kit? I mean, I've heard that you can transfer files to and from the XBox to the PC, so what is stopping you transfering a game file.

This isn't for commercial use, just for experimentation purposes. Would it not help new talent to get into the gaming industry, and isn't that what people want?

If not, is it the same story for PS3 and PSP? I can't see anyway for a person like me to even think about giving it a try without making a major commitment (getting myself employeed by a gaming company).

BenZilla

No.

Nintendo was apparently going to get something going.

Detroit Muscle
Wii!

MS doesn't allow unsigned code to run on their consoles, so you'll have to wait for the mod chips to come out, and then use a pirated version of the SDK. Thats what the xbox 1 hobbiests do. MS doesn't sell xbox SDKs to individuals.

If you want to do legit hobbiest game development, I recomend getting a Dreamcast or a GBA. I personally recomend the Dreamcast, since it can boot off of regular CD-Rs.

Manip

Or Java on a lot of mobile phones (cell phones).

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BenZilla

Beer28 wrote:
The PS3 will have a hard drive and linux, so you can use open source game OpenGL sdk's and or something like Torque which is $99. I have a license for that.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23878

This should make the wildest dreams of garage game dev's possible, finally.
A brand new top of the line console you can code OGL games for.

No.

BenZilla

Beer28 wrote:
BenZilla wrote:

No.

And why not?

or is this just a "no, that's impossible", they couldn't have possibly made it so people can homebrew games on a next gen console knee jerk response?

Look it up.

I'll start you off, the PS1 and PS2 were both linux machines, and then look at how console makers actually make their money.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:
BenZilla wrote:
Look it up.

I'll start you off, the PS1 and PS2 were both linux machines, and then look at how console makers actually make their money.

that's irrelevant. If they ship PS3 with a working version of linux on a harddrive and X server, how in the world are they going to stop people from running OGL and games?

Go for something far fetched if you have to.

Just like the Xbox 360. MS & Sony can block programs from running if the programs aren't signed. In the Xbox 360, it's a hardware solution & no doubt in the PS3, too. I just don't see Sony, a top or 2nd place console manufacturer doing this. There's just too much invested money to open it up for any Tom, Dick, & Sally. PC is where it's at!

BenZilla

The way Microsoft stopped people running homebrew games(untill cracked)

And a PS3 witha harddrive is still unconfirmed(waving on the side of no to keep the immense cost of the beast down)

How are you going to run hombrew games without a hardrive?

And again, how do console makers make their money from consoles, and why would it be bad if we could port over home brew games.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:

So you're saying they're going to let X run for linux right? Then they're going to disable hardware acceleration for GL?
What about people watching videos or using GL for other reasons?

I don't believe this is even possible.

I'm saying that Sony is extremely embarassed that the PS3 didn't come out before the Xbox 360. And they are on a campaign to talk up the PS3 to retain some interest for the their console. Whatever they're saying right now can't be taken seriously. From it's a privilege to own a $600 PS3, to using your PS3 to edit movies. They can say all those things because they don't have to deliver, yet.

Look at the PS2 Linux kit. You could order a special PS2 from Sony that has security turned off. And you can build games for the PS2. The only thing is your homebrew games won't work on regular PS2's. They'd probably continue that. Although, we have professional game developers grumbling that the PS3 is hard to develop for. What of the hobbyists?

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:

OK, I understand now, you're saying that they're lying, that there won't be a linux hard drive with the PS3 that runs X and OGL. That they made it up.

I hope you're wrong, and if you are, it's going to be stupid easy to write homebrew games for the PS3

Me = edit happy.

Look at the PS2 Linux kit. You could order a special PS2 from Sony that has security turned off. And you can build games for the PS2. The only thing is your homebrew games won't work on regular PS2's. They'd probably continue that. Although, we have professional game developers grumbling that the PS3 is hard to develop for. What of the hobbyists?

If you can put your distaste for MS aside, Xbox Live Arcade is much more like what you're looking for... They've got Torque game running on there already.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:

But the PS3 SDK gamers have to use the Cell chip, people using OGL on top of linux wouldn't have to do any of that to develop games, they could develop it exactly the same as on x86.

If they're writing code targeting OGL, at the very least, they'd still need the Cell C++ compiler. That'd have to come from the PS3 SDK -- until someone port gcc for the Cell.

Beer28 wrote:

If they use an engine they don't even have to write code, they can just use the game script as usual.

True. On a related note, the Torque people have ceased development on their OGL engine -- and are now focused entirely on a DirectX engine. So, they're clearly targeting PC & Xbox Live market. Chances are you'll never see Torque for the PS3.

Beer28 wrote:

So I'm unclear on your logic there. In the articles about PS3 linux, they didn't say it would be a "special edition". They said they're selling the drive as a peripheral. That means alot of people could potentially have it and make a whole homebrew PS3 thing possible.

The article didn't mention the "special edition", but the PS2 Linux kit was sold at one point. Anything is possible, I guess. Even if they did sell a HD w/ Linux pre-installed, you'd still need the SDK if you wanted to do game programming. And it being a closed ecosystem, Sony won't let you in. Or MS, or Nintendo. Hey, maybe the Phantom.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:

Right now IBM now has Linux and GCC compiler ported over completely to the Cell
arch. It still is mostly PowerPC code
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Developers have to be using something to do PS3 game right now.

Beer28 wrote:

How do you think linux is going to run on it?

http://www.garagegames.com/products/1

Linux

That's x86 Linux, right? Who's going to convert Torque to Cell? This is what GarageGames is working on right now:

The Torque Shader Engine

(Windows only)

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:

Your game script would sit on top of the game engine and the game engine on top of OGL, and that on top of linux in the stack, no sdk.

Well, yeah -- but what game engine? Like I said before, Torque is x86 & Mac only at this point.

Beer28 wrote:
go into the PS3 rom or program addr's and rip the driver bin out from the module start to it's length and shove it into an RPM. End of story.

You forget the security check. If your .exe isn't signed by Sony's key, it won't be loaded. And the code to do that is locked up, so ... no snooping.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Beer28 wrote:
Minh wrote:
You forget the security check. If your .exe isn't signed by Sony's key, it won't be loaded. And the code to do that is locked up, so ... no snooping.

If linux is the OS, there isn't a code check. No .exe's.

Security check is performed BEFORE booting into the O/S of course. This is the case with the Xbox 1. But sloppy work allowed workarounds. They say Xbox 360 is much more secured. PS3 will do the same.

Cider
Daze-d & Confused

What you forget when you mention Linux and PS3 is that this information comes from Ken Kutaragi.

Basically, until you actually see it and use it, I would take everything with a large pinch of salt. In the interview where he mentioned Linux, he almost came across as if he was making it up on the spot. Take the Inquirer's quote from him:

"We're positioning the PS3 as a supercomputer", he says, "But people won't recognize it as a computer unless we call it a computer, so we're going to run an OS on it. In fact, the Cell can run multiple OSes. In order to run the OSes, we need a hard disk. So in order to declare that the PS3 is a computer, I think we'll have [the hard disk] preinstalled with Linux as a bonus.

Its about as well thought out as Sony's DRM. Now, let's take it into account that recently he said in an interview that the PS3 wont even come with a hard drive, because,to paraphrase because it was in a Japanese mag, "whatever size we install, it'll never be big enough" (zero is better than "never be big enough"? brill logic Ken), you have a situation which is muddled to the point of discounting everything he has said.

Personally, I can't see that providing, updating and supporting Linux on a hard drive which isn't bundled is at all economically viable for Sony because the target market would be tiny and would not generate any income.

ZippyV
Fired Up

There never was a special PS2, the linux kit can run on any PS2 (except the new flat ones).

But Sony did NOT allow the applications made with that kit to run on other PS2's if they didn't have the linux kit. Some of the best games got featured on official demo discs and there was an online exchange for all the linux kit people to share their applications/games.

BenZilla

They probably won't have a hardrive, it will drive the cost of the system up too much.

And again, Sony get nothing from these homebrew games, so i'm gonna say they will have kits like with the PS2. BUt it's not ognna be like you describe beer.

Anyway, next year I get to work with 360 dev kits anyway Cool

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Beer, you're giving us a whole new definition of the word "naive".

How many homebrew games have you seen on the PS2? According to sales numbers and the architectural differences between the PS3 and PS3, I bet $100 that you will not see a widely available (that means, you can buy it at EB Games) homebrew game for the PS3, ever.

I'm ready to put down the money to somebody mutually trusted, are you?

Karim
Trapped in a world he never made!

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Detroit Muscle
Wii!

PaoloM wrote:

How many homebrew games have you seen on the PS2?

The PS2 doesn't have a big hobbiest community. However, you can buy professionally published homebrew Dreamcast games at Lik-Sang.

IRenderable
Pi

In terms of openness of the platform relating to this generation (not 360 and PS3) the Xbox was much more open. Indie developers (By indie I do not mean hobbiest, I mean people who have sold games) could get XBox arcade and you did not need to be a big company to get them.

If the PS3 does have linux on it, then that would be awsome but I dought it really will, or it will be restricted in some way because console makers generally lose money on the consoles but make money from selling licenses to develop on it.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Beer28 wrote:
I can't predict the future, nor do I have the ability to "make it so" like the Bill Gates forcasts so I'm not going to bet on it.

I see. Yet, you keep claiming all sorts of things that will happen. Are you just opening your mouth to ventilate it or what?

Beer28 wrote:
I can say that if linux ps3 hard drives are widely available, I'm going to recompile whatever small games I have made at that time for PS3 Cell.

Well, we all know that there was a Linux kit for the PS2. How many games have you seen made with that kit?

For that matter, how many kits were sold? (I know the answer, let's see if you can find it)

Beer28 wrote:
Why should only people who can sign code be able to make console games?

Because the maker of the console decided so?

Beer28 wrote:
That's stupid anyway. Maybe Sony figured that out.

Sony? Sorry, are we talking about the same company that installs rootkits on your machine?

Beer28 wrote:
On windows you have to buy certificates and have a fairly large company to sign code, on linux you can use free gpg to sign rpm's and it works just as well.

Yep. Just for reference, which game was developed with the Linux kit on the PS2?

Beer28 wrote:
Maybe sony is going the down that new way of community trust.

(see the rootkit reference above)

Beer28 wrote:
I don't know. I do know that if they ship linux for the machine in whatever form widely, stopping 3rd party games will be next to impossible. They may not be high def, but they'll work.

They shipped a Linux kit for the PS2. 3rd party software developed with that kit DID NOT RUN on stock PS2s. How many times do we have to repeat this?

Karim
Trapped in a world he never made!

Beer28 wrote:

Don't have time to dig them up now, visit happypenguin.org.

...sounds familiar...

Karim wrote:

The algorithm goes like this:

Beer28: [Insanely improbable claim]

Other Niner: Prove it.

Beer28: You look it up, I don't have time to.