Posted By: Tyler Brown | Nov 23rd, 2005 @ 4:23 PM
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Comments: 18 | Views: 8037
Tyler Brown
Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.
ScanIAm wrote:
Larsenal wrote:
I have to admit, Beer... I don't know how any of this feels.  So far I've been able to calmly just drop the issue when someone wants to argue over something silly.  Try it.  It's great.


When you say you are trading stock options, do you mean you are trading stocks? 

I've been doing this for a number of years and if you are interested, start another thread.  We could use MSFT stock as an example to keep it within the coffeehouse limits

At the risk of complete mockage, I've got a system that seems to work.  In theory it will work for trading anything.



I'm actually rather interested in getting into some stock trading. Nothing big at the moment. I'm a student with a part time job throughout the school year, so when I get some extra cash, I'd like to invest it to potentially turn it into a larger sum of cash over time, nothing short term. I haven't really looked into trading stocks. I've looked around various sites and explored a bit of the market sites, but how do I get started and what should I know?
Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
I'm starting a blog on this topic soon.  I'm getting the kinks worked out of my shiny new blogging system before I debut the "Stock Options" blog.

Maybe a good place to start the discussion would be with an introduction to your experience/education up to this point.

I was lucky enough to jump into the market literally right before the dot-com bust.  Lost a lot of money.  I didn't have any serious education.  I've spent the past few years educating myself and have jumped back in this Sept. trading stock options (which are different from stocks themselves.)

So far it's been very interesting.  I've had some HUGE gains as well as some serious losses.  I have a set of rules that generally control risk when followed.  I mostly use technical analysis to time the trades.
DevilsRejection
DevilsRejection
addicted to rss
You know you should start a trend, an RSS feed that when you buy/sell something people can see it.
Sven Groot
Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...
Be careful with that, I believe there are some legal ramifications to giving out trading advice. Be very careful to make sure that you word it such that it's clear you're not telling people how to trade, and that you can't be held responsible if they do follow your lead and lose money because of it.

I have a friend who ran a service that sold a trade system; you'd sign up for a monthly fee, and get messages by e-mail or SMS whenever to go long and short in index futures. If you want, I can ask him what to watch out for with this type of deal.
ScanIAm
ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.
OK, first, I'll get the parts out of the way that is most open to mockage:

     The guy who wrote the book gave it a very, very silly (and suspect) title:  How to make $1,000,000 in the Stock Market.

Seriously, the book title screams multi-level marketing and pyramid schemes.

That said, it gets worse.  The first 1/2 of the book (I have an earlier version from the late 80s) is full of homespun storytelling that will leave you wondering if you've been ripped off. 

You haven't been ripped off.  If you make it past the "Golly Gee, It suddenly dawned on me" crap, you'll see a pretty decent plan for investing that will keep you from screwing yourself in either up or down markets.

Here's how it basically works:  You put half of your money in what is called a 'high beta' stock.  High beta is another word for very volitile which means "You could lose your money". 

You put the other half in a very safe place (cash or super low-risk money market).  If the high risk (high beta) stock goes up, you sell off a small portion of it and put the money in the cash.  If the high risk (high beta) goes down, you buy a small portion.

The formula can be recreated in an excel spreadsheet and you can decide to 'adjust' as often as you wish, but you have to follow what the formula says. 

There are a few 'safety' features in the formula that keeps you from getting greedy and they'll help you out in times where you might try to overthink the market. 

I use it on a number of personal stocks and I've used it on my 401(k) and after about 8 years, I'm quite pleased.  I lost money during the dot-com bust like everyone else, but I'm in a really good position now.  For example:

I had $2000 to spend from an old IRA.  I started the formula and bought Lucent stock at about $70 a share.  Lucent stock currently trades at about $2.75 a share.  I've been staring at a massive loss, but because the formula forced me to buy small amounts with the cash as the lucent stock went down, It only has to go back up to $6 a share for me to break even.  I lost money and I'm still in the red on it, but I don't have to wait for the magical pixie fairy to boost lucent shares to $70 again.

There are a number of websites that have sprung up over the years that have forums and stuff and in fact, you can probably gain the formula itself from them.  I'm more than happy to give my spreadsheet away for free if you are interested.

The only thing I would encourage you to do buy the book and make sure you understand how the formulas work so you understand what is going on.  



Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
Sven Groot wrote:
Be careful with that, I believe there are some legal ramifications to giving out trading advice. Be very careful to make sure that you word it such that it's clear you're not telling people how to trade, and that you can't be held responsible if they do follow your lead and lose money because of it.


Good advice.  I'll be sure to include the appropriate disclaimers.  The title of my blog will be something like, "Learning and Laughing at My Mistakes."  I won't be selling anything.  The main idea is to have an ongoing discussion with people (mostly known friends) about trading.


Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
ScanIAm, the idea of easing into a position is not a bad one.  However, that does not necessarily prevent catostrophic loss.  Even when you think a stock has bottomed out, never discount the possibility of it going lower (unless it trades at $0.00).

Also, my personal goals are a bit more agressive than breaking even.  So if the strategy has no potential for big payoff, then that's too much of a risk for me.

My goal is to learn how to manage my positions better.  If you do much trading, you'll soon find that there's more to it than merely "knowing" a stock will go up or down.
ScanIAm
ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.
I've never traded stock options...how does it work?
Cider
Cider
Daze-d & Confused
My advice:

#1
Don't listen to me on stock advice.  I once told someone when Baltimore was 3 pound something they were the future of the Internet.  They are worth about 11p a share now.

#2
Buy General Motors shares.  They have a rosy future.

#3
When reading #2, see #1
Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
ScanIAm, I'd love to engage the topic.  Unfortunately I'm due to begin travelling soon.  Let's reignite the discussion next week.  Good luck!
ScanIAm
ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.
Larsenal wrote:
ScanIAm, the idea of easing into a position is not a bad one.  However, that does not necessarily prevent catostrophic loss.  Even when you think a stock has bottomed out, never discount the possibility of it going lower (unless it trades at $0.00).

Also, my personal goals are a bit more agressive than breaking even.  So if the strategy has no potential for big payoff, then that's too much of a risk for me.

My goal is to learn how to manage my positions better.  If you do much trading, you'll soon find that there's more to it than merely "knowing" a stock will go up or down.


I'm interested to hear how you work it.  You are correct, though, my deal is more a plan to avoid loss and to take profit within a reasonable range. 

That said, I've been thinking more and more lately about using some expendable cash to attempt some timing.  One thing I've noticed is that many of the scandal stocks of the last few years have emerged and made massive amounts of money for people willing to buy an undervalued stock.  Worldcom would be an example of this.


Edit: Larsenal, have fun!
Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
I highly recommend this book.  It helps you understand how different types of people think about money.

It's not a how-to book, but it helps get your financial brain thinking.  Don't try to invest or trade until you understand how money works.
Sven Groot
Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...
Tyler Brown wrote:
So for someone that wants to get started in trading stocks, or stock options (whats the difference?)

An option could be described as a "promise" to sell or buy stock against a certain price. If you get a call option for X company at $5 that ends on december 2005, it means that you agree to buy 100 stock contracts (iirc options go per 100) at $5 per piece at the end of november. The other end of the deal is a put option, where you agree to sell at that price. If the stock is actually more expensive than $5, the person with the call option makes a profit, because he's getting a bargain. If it's cheaper, the put option makes a profit because that person has a guaranteed sell at a higher price than the going rate. Nowadays the person with the call and the person with the put never really deal with each other, and you don't actually need to have 100 stocks to sell to get a put option, because your bank takes care of the details and gives you the difference in money.

So getting a call or a put option is basically a bet that that stock will trade higher or lower than a certain price at a date. The options themselves are valued based on the probability that that's going to happen, and the closer you get to the expiry date, the cheaper the options themselves will get. Plenty of people never expire the options to take the profit that way, but make profit simply by buying and selling the options.

Am I still making sense?
Sven Groot
Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...
Funny story: you can get options not just on stocks, but also on a lot of other things. Potatoes, pigs, orange juice, you name it, anything that is sold at a varying price, you can get options on. In the olden days, if these options expired you would actually get the items they covered. There are stories of people going on vacation, forgetting to sell their options before expiring, and upon coming back the found out they suddenly owned ten tons of potatoes. Even worse are put options, when you suddenly are legally obliged to sell ten tons of potatoes (and whaddya know, we've just ran out Wink ).

Not sure if these things actually happened, but such are the stories. Smiley
ScanIAm
ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.
Sven Groot wrote:
Funny story: you can get options not just on stocks, but also on a lot of other things. Potatoes, pigs, orange juice, you name it, anything that is sold at a varying price, you can get options on. In the olden days, if these options expired you would actually get the items they covered. There are stories of people going on vacation, forgetting to sell their options before expiring, and upon coming back the found out they suddenly owned ten tons of potatoes. Even worse are put options, when you suddenly are legally obliged to sell ten tons of potatoes (and whaddya know, we've just ran out ).

Not sure if these things actually happened, but such are the stories.


Nothing personal, but this is why I play with stocks...not stock options.   I didn't realize what they were until larsenal and sven described them, but: buying stocks is a risk.  Betting on the future price of stocks is fricken crazy!

And if you make money at it, GFU Smiley


Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
[Blatant bump]

Scan, I've been watching the markets more actively, and I remembered this discussion.  I'm interested to hear if you've continued with the system.  Is it working well?

I've had my ups and downs, but most of my trades are "paper trades" for practice purposes.
ScanIAm
ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

I've been doing it for almost 8 years now and it's been working.

Heh, I got to pick up a few MSFT shares when they went down recently....now they are back up again Smiley

Edit: Are your profits still there when you take fees into account?

Larsenal
Larsenal
ready to give an answer
Good call on MSFT, Scan.

Right now I'm experimenting w/ covered calls.  I've got a position on SNDK that's going quite well.
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