Alternative GPS System | The Coffeehouse

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

Just saw this over on Beta News, apparently there is an alternative system to the US Military owned GPS system in the works. It will be under civillian control and it seems that there are several countries on board. Apparently it will offer superior accuracy to that of the current GPS system, marking your position to within 1 metre.

Read the article here.

Its good to see that an improvement is being made to the system, although at a rather high price. I'd imagine sending upgrade crews to space to upgrade all the current GPS satellites would cost significantly more though.

I'm not quite sure what other benefits we will see from this system being run by a civillian organization. Sure the US Military could shut down the GPS system at any time, but I don't believe that they could selectively block access unless they encrypt the data transmissions from the GPS satellites...

Tensor
Im in yr house upgrading yr family

The thing is that there are lots, and I mean LOTS of people outside the USA who rely on GPS.... its a great system, but in the end its the USA who controls it and who is to say what will happen in the future? Maybe EU-USA trade wars get to apoint where the USA threatens to shut off GPS over Europe... The point being, that is now off the table.

Plus, even if you dotn buy that argument, Redundancy is a good thing for critical systems like this.

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

Thats what I was thinking as well... with a multitude of countries involved with the program, it would prevent such a system from being used as a bargaining chip as all member countries would have to agree to shut down the system.

I personally think that its a great move for everyone. Sure its a little more accurate (5 metres VS 1 metre) but perhaps the new system will feature more powerful transmitters so that new receivers will be able to work indoors.

Any idea on what the new system will be called? I haven't done much research on the program, other than what I read on BetaNews.

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

this is way old news. The first of 30 satelites was launched.

Now the US government has worked with EU in making the systems work together and allowing the US to lock out the system in places where the US is carrying out Military operations.

The reason the EU agreeded, is the promise the US was going to shoot down the satelites if an enemy was using it against the US.

At present the US is the only country that has successfully shot down a satelite using an F15 and a long range missile. So it was not viewed as a bluff.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Tensor wrote:
The thing is that there are lots, and I mean LOTS of people outside the USA who rely on GPS.... its a great system, but in the end its the USA who controls it and who is to say what will happen in the future? Maybe EU-USA trade wars get to apoint where the USA threatens to shut off GPS over Europe... The point being, that is now off the table.

Actually the US already threatened to use their system to transmit overpowering signals to kill off the eu system in times of war, and a leaked memo from the air force discussed plans to shoot it all down.

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

zzzzz wrote:
At present the US is the only country that has successfully shot down a satelite using an F15 and a long range missile.

Interesting... although I don't recall reading this. Do you have any information regarding which satellite was shot down, and why? Was it just an old US satellite that they figured would be a good candidate for a test run?

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

it was don in the late 70's or early 80's with an old satelite. Saw it on Discovery Wings now the Military Channel

manickernel
anticipate consequences..

I am just wondering how long it is going to take 'til somebody loads a Cessna with 500 lbs. of Semtex and programs in ....

Sad

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

manickernel wrote:
I am just wondering how long it is going to take 'til somebody loads a Cessna with 500 lbs. of Semtex and programs in ....

What's preventing them from doing that 5 years ago? Consumer-grade GPS isn't military-grade, but it is within 20 feet.

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

So do the military GPS receivers have access to additional data to improve the accuracy then Minh? I've only recently started looking into GPS receivers...

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

Tyler Brown wrote:
So do the military GPS receivers have access to additional data to improve the accuracy then Minh? I've only recently started looking into GPS receivers...

I don't know how it's done, but there's definitely another level of info/signal that military-grade GPS receivers get from the satellites that allows them to be much more accurate.

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

zzzzz wrote:
it was don in the late 70's or early 80's with an old satelite. Saw it on Discovery Wings now the Military Channel

Not that I don't believe you, but I'm still calling 'shenanigans' on that one unless you can provide a link. I tried MSN Search* and couldn't find anything even remotely like that.

*I'm still trying MSN Search as an alternative to Google to see how I like it, but I broke down and googled** it as well.

**MSN Search needs a new name. Googling something is hip and cool and stylish. MSN Searching something sounds icky like calling something the 'Enron Stadium'

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

ScanIAm wrote:

Not that I don't believe you, but I'm still calling 'shenanigans' on that one unless you can provide a link. I tried MSN Search* and couldn't find anything even remotely like that.

if you don't believe that link

Try these
Edwards air force base
Global Security
Link3

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

zzzzz wrote:

ScanIAm wrote:

Not that I don't believe you, but I'm still calling 'shenanigans' on that one unless you can provide a link. I tried MSN Search* and couldn't find anything even remotely like that.

if you don't believe that link

Try these
Edwards air force base
Global Security
Link3

I humbly stand corrected. I guess my MSN Search Foo is no match for yours Smiley

I like this line:

FAQS wrote:
The satellite was well beyond its expected life but it was still returning data, and the project scientists were annoyed and complained loudly.

Silly scientists...don't you watch movies? The military always ignores your loud complaints.

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

ScanIAm wrote:

I humbly stand corrected. I guess my MSN Search Foo is no match for yours

the reason i don't use MSN. every time i need to find something odd it never does

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

Military use to degrad the GPS signals so it was only accurate within 10 meters. Clinton changed that with an EO to 1 meter in the late 90's.

The problem with GPS is its almost 40 year old tech and the atomic clocks used and signal quality is not that great. As the signal quality goes so does accuracy. Signal quality goes down in cities and thick forrest.

The military has special antennas and other hardware to improve accuracy which is band for commerical or consumer use.

The EU system is new tech all around with strong transmission signals improving accuracy. The idea is to be in a few cm on their paid service plans...

Tyler here is a link discussing the F15

FAQS wrote:

One of the more interesting experimental applications of the F-15 has been as a "antisatellite (ASAT)" interceptor. During the early 1980s, F-15s performed tests with an ASAT missile carried on the centerline pylon, with the aircraft going into a climb along a prearranged trajectory to fire the missile at an altitude of 24,400 meters (80,000 feet). The missile then went into space and released a "kill vehicle" that homed in on the orbiting target using an infrared seeker and rammed it, destroying the target through sheer kinetic energy.
The ASAT was based on the Boeing AGM-69 Short Range Attack Missile (SRAM) that had been developed for the B-52 and B-1 bombers. The ASAT had a launch weight of 1,225 kilograms (2,700 pounds) with a length of 5.43 meters (17 feet 10 inches) and could intercept satellites up to altitudes of 965 kilometers (600 miles). The ASAT was seen as much more cost-effective than the "co-orbital" weapons developed by the Soviets and considered by the US, which involved launching a "killer satellite" with a normal satellite booster.
The F-15 was regarded as a good launch platform because of its excellent rate of climb. Following a series of tests, on 13 September 1985 an ASAT-armed F-15A engaged and destroyed the "Solwind P78-1" space science satellite, which had been launched by the US in February 1979. The satellite was well beyond its expected life but it was still returning data, and the project scientists were annoyed and complained loudly.

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

zzzzz wrote:

ScanIAm wrote:
I humbly stand corrected. I guess my MSN Search Foo is no match for yours

the reason i don't use MSN. every time i need to find something odd it never does

Yeah, but neither did google...

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

ScanIAm wrote:

Yeah, but neither did google...

this is what i typed in

f15 shoots down satellite

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

zzzzz wrote:

ScanIAm wrote:

Yeah, but neither did google...

this is what i typed in

f15 shoots down satellite

I just tried that on MSN Search and got no love (plenty of hits, but not what I was looking for). Google brought it up as the first hit.

I originally searched for 'satellite shot down' on both and couldn't find it...

Tyler Brown
Bullets change governments far surer than votes.

I just tried Googling it using f15 destroys satellite, and it was the very first link.

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

When ever i'm looking for something i try think how would a press agent describe it.

in this case we are talking about the F15 doing something really cool. likeing killing a satellite

so the press writter sits down and comes up with something catchy

F15 SHOOTS DOWN SATELLITE...

That in a nutshell is th entire article not Satllite shot down..... thats not catchy

or soemthing like this

DOD SHOOTs down a Satellite

now this returns some interesting articles and can lead to ways to narrow your search.

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

That's actually a good idea, now that you mention it. I tend to 'think differently' which doesn't translate well to marketroid speak Smiley

Tensor
Im in yr house upgrading yr family

I can tell you know, if an f15 shot down part of the galielleo network, in this country it would play as "USA SHOOTS DOWN BRITISH BUILT SATALITE"

Would be interested to know the feasability of air-launched missile hitting a satalite in whatever orbit galielleio is in... Was this a design parameter?

zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle

Yes this was design parameter Tensor.

If the US can hit a missile with a missile now, don't you think the US can take down some satellites with minimual difficulty?

The idea of ASAT is not something the US wants to do because of the debri created making that potion of space unusable. link

The US is capable of jamming or creating bogus data, but the US wanted to send the EU a clear warning that if they don't play ball kiss those satellites bye-bye

the message was well received

Karim
Trapped in a world he never made!

Kinetic kill is so 1990s. Today the kids are working on using airborne laser systems to knock down satellites.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/space_weapons/asat-capabilities-of-us-missile-defense-systems.html

(scroll down to "Air-Borne Laser (ABL)")

There's also this article:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept1999/0999lasers.asp

Though the ABL could point its laser upwards and conceivably use it in some sort of anti-satellite mission, that hasn't been examined. "It's not something we're working on," said Booen.

"Well yes I suppose it's possible. Shooting down a satellite with a laser might even be easier than shooting down a missile, due to the longer dwell time, the fact that satellites are more fragile... yes, interesting. Something we might want to look at someday. We're certainly not looking at it right now. No it never ever occurred to anyone. Just never crossed our minds."

Pay no attention... nothing to see here... move along... Big Smile