IT jobs: What's more important, skill or grades and college? | The Coffeehouse

ricodued

Hrm. Being a Sophomore in high school, I've been thinking about what will come after I graduate, and I came up with some problems.

With my last report card, I had a 2.994 GPA, 2.7 cumulative. My high school only counts core classes for GPA, so it didn't include CAD or Adv. Computers, etc. Just English, Algebra, History, and Biology.

I've become increasingly worried a 2.9GPA out of high school is not going to get me into the colleges I'm looking at (Michigan State, or, if I can pull of a couple of 4.0s for the next two years, UC Berkeley) and then into the career I want (software development, possibly games) at a company I want (Microsoft is my first choice at the moment). I know I can work harder and get a 3.2-ish GPA, but I'm still slightly worried. My only problem is lack of attention in some classes. For example, I consider myself to be pretty skilled when it comes to writing code to perform a specified function in the language of my choice or solving complex problems, but I cannot for the life of me bring myself to write two pages on RNA replication, even though I understand it quite well.

For those of you out there with jobs in the IT industry, preferrably those with jobs at Microsoft, what were your grades like in high school, what college did you attend, and in the end, do you think it really mattered?

Probably a very stereotypical question, but I guess it needs to be asked.

Thanks Big Smile

jozjan
jozjan

Take it easy.
Good Programmers Are Lazy and Dumb

balupton
I'm a actually a bot.

I'm sort of at the same position as you, deciding which courses should i do, and what is actually invloved in the IT industry.

I recently started up the topic:
Unvirsity, Which Course did You Do, Which Course should I Do?
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=160909#160909

But in my experience grades.... well qualifications means everything.

In the Australian system, High School is Yr8-12 with yr11-12 the ones that matter.

But I dropped out in the 2nd month through yr11, and then went to TAFE (Like a optional pre-uni school).

TAFE and University work like this:
Cert1-4 (Tafe)
Diploma (Tafe or Uni)
Degree (Uni)
Masters (Uni)
Doctors (Uni)

Now for programming, to do the Diploma (1 Year) at Tafe, you need to of completed the Cert4 (1 Year), and to do that you need to of completed the Cert3 (1 Year).

Before i dropped out of high school, i had already completed nearly all of the part-time/casual Cert3 and Cert4 courses at Tafe.

When i dropped out i did the Cert4 (1 Semester) in WebDesign, and then the Diploma in WebDesign (1 Semester), with some more programming Cert3 and Cert4 units.

Now at Tafe, for all the courses i had already self taught myself most of the programming that we learnt, i just had to learn the alternative ways to do things in the different languages.

Yer but now after completing my Diploma in WebDesign I got accepted to Curtin University, Western Australia, for the Bachelor of Science (Information Technology).
But then I was shoked to discover they no longer do 'skill recognition' aka 'exemptions'.

But yer in all my experience you CANNOT get into courses OR jobs, unless you have the paperwork behind it......... (or if you excell and you make good friends with the lecturers and student services people [cough cough nudge nudge])

Yer even if you have the skills you either need good friends in the area who recognise your skill, or the paperwork aka certificates behind it.

Hope this helps
-Ben

Jason Cox
Longtime C9 Lurker

It all depends on where you want to work and who is doing the hiring there. If you have some HR guy who only does HR then yeah, they'll probaly be looking at your degree and GPA in detail but if you have someone from inside the department doing the hiring they'll probally be looking at your skills and what you could bring to the company.

At my job only half the staff are college grads, what got us all jobs isnt degrees and GPAs, but our technical skills with Windows. Then again we were all hired by our Director of IT Operations and not HR, so he knew what he was looking for.

Of course however if you have two younger guys applying for the same job and both seem to have the same skill level then you might check out the degrees and GPA but in general the company wants to hire someone who can do the job and do it well.

The JobsBlog is a great read for this subject, in the past Gretchen has talked about some the hiring myths such as this one.

ricodued

Thanks guys, I'll bear all that in mind Smiley

I would like to work at some place like Microsoft. Channel9 really gave me a look into how the company works and everything and it really does look like an awesome company to work for. If I recall, it's even in one of the top employers in the nation.

Thanks again. Big Smile

leeappdalecom
.nettter

whats more importatnt skill, grades and college?

hmmmm

id go with experience and luck lol!

Andrei P
Geekpedia.com

If you would like to succeed in software development by running your own company, I'd say enthusiasm and motivation are very important. Because if you are very enthusiastic you'll learn the necessary skills.
On the other hand, if you expect college to teach you all that there's needed for having a successful career... then you'll be needing luck Smiley

Andrei P
Geekpedia.com

ricodued wrote:

I would like to work at some place like Microsoft. Channel9 really gave me a look into how the company works and everything and it really does look like an awesome company to work for. If I recall, it's even in one of the top employers in the nation.

Well, who wouldn't like to work here? http://www.geekpedia.com/tag93_Microsoft-Campus.html

Flip

Coming from the hardest working university student I know (and humble :>), there's two things to think about.

If you have the highest grades going, life is easy, you call the shots, you decide where you want to work and most likely places like Microsoft, IBM, Sun, or big shops like that. However, cause things come easy, life might get harder as you age cause you're so used to getting what you want, you might lose your drive.

However, if you have to fight for everyhting you have achieved, to learn everything you know by the school of hard knocks, then you appreciate what you have and just might be a happier person in life for it. You might not be working for MS, but you'll possibly be making a bigger difference with a smaller company.

Some hiring people (HR and dev managers) respect experience over grades cause you're job is to make them look good. What makes the manager look good, a great final product or the spreadsheet of employee stats/specs? Depends on where you work and if they never release stuff! :>

Food for thought. Good luck with your schooling.

Red5
Systems Manager Curmudgen

We don't give a rip about grades. We really don't give much of a rip about certifications either.

Experience, technical knowledge, a good work ethic, and a sparkling personality are the big factors for us.

Why a sparkling personality you ask? Because you will have to work efficiently with other sparkling personalities.

Creativity is also a big plus:D

balupton
I'm a actually a bot.

To sum up what everyones been saying;
Excellent grades + Experience > Workforce.
Excellent grades > School.
Excellent grades > Workforce.
Good grades > School.
Good grades + Experience > Workforce.
Bad grades < School, Workforce.

As i said in my first post though, in School you need etiher good grades and the certifications/qualifications, or luck.

In the workforce is good grades and experience, and some luck.

Charles
Welcome Change

I think good grades are overrated... Success in the real world of IT and computing depends primarily on one's ability to handle stress, level of creativity, level of productivity, desire, drive, passion and intelligence. An A in CompSci has little bearing on any of the above criteria. That said, sure, graduating MIT with honors doesn't hurt your chances of being hired into an IT gig... Just don't place too much of an emphasis on it.

At Microsoft, for example, we pay much more attention to the above characteristics than we do academic standing. I have worked with somebody in the past that we hired right out of high school, with average grades...

C

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

Charles wrote:
I have worked with somebody in the past that we hired right out of high school, with average grades...

Details... I'm interested Wink

j0217995

In face degree doesn't always matter. Let me explain. I have a degree in education, social studies secondary ed. The job market for teachers in Michigan (USA) is probablly as tough a market as one can find. The pay is great and the union is quite strong. The problem with being a social studies teacher is that a majority of them are coaches (football coach, baseball, etc) and I did not have coaching experience.

To pay for college I worked in the IT area of the university that I went to. SO IT was my fall back career. After a yearr of substitute teaching (which sucks big time btw), I decided to go back into IT. I started doing Internet Helpdesk and slowly moved on to the job I have, a network administrator for a community bank.

Why? Cause I know my stuff, I work har d and I do my job correctly. If you work hard and know you stuff and get along well with people I feel that you will always find a job.

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

j0217995 wrote:
In face degree doesn't always matter. Let me explain. I have a degree in education, social studies secondary ed. The job market for teachers in Michigan (USA) is probablly as tough a market as one can find. The pay is great and the union is quite strong. The problem with being a social studies teacher is that a majority of them are coaches (football coach, baseball, etc) and I did not have coaching experience.

...what is being a teacher like? I'm pondering becoming an IT teacher if everything I'm doing right now doesn't work out well (not to mention it would make a change from the influx of Liverpudlian "ICT" teachers this part of Cheshire has seen (co-incidentally the only 'cool' IT teacher my past school ever had looked a little like I do right now, long hair FTW)

DoomBringer
Doom!

Good grades are just indicative of skill, at least when you're taking a moderately difficult set of courses at an accredited institution. I mean, if I was hiring, and my choices were between good grades and bad grades, the bad grades person would really have to be stellar in an interview (if I let them get that far). Experience is very important, so it can be an equalizer.
For me, I have good grades and good experience: 8 months of internship and other things.

j0217995

W3bbo wrote:

j0217995 wrote:
In face degree doesn't always matter. Let me explain. I have a degree in education, social studies secondary ed. The job market for teachers in Michigan (USA) is probablly as tough a market as one can find. The pay is great and the union is quite strong. The problem with being a social studies teacher is that a majority of them are coaches (football coach, baseball, etc) and I did not have coaching experience.

...what is being a teacher like? I'm pondering becoming an IT teacher if everything I'm doing right now doesn't work out well (not to mention it would make a change from the influx of Liverpudlian "ICT" teachers this part of Cheshire has seen (co-incidentally the only 'cool' IT teacher my past school ever had looked a little like I do right now, long hair FTW)

More work then people think. If you really want to be a good teacher, don't try to be cool. Students can see right through fakeness. Treat your students with respect and the students will respect you, be as fair as you can, but always enforce the rules.

I think there needs to be more IT teachers out there. One schoold district I subbed for had several IT classes, inlcuding the Cisco academy. However the teacher wasn't technical, more teaching right out the book without real world experience and the students saw it.

I don't know how teacher training happens in the UK but there are lot of hoops to jump through and the whole process is very political.

ricodued

Heh, thanks for all the advice guys. Definitely relieves some worries set into my head by various people.

-Eric

kriskdf

Charles is pretty accurate in his description. I've personally said "No Hire" to PHD students at fantastic schools with good grades. Grades aren't everything.

Having graduated from college not too long ago (about 5 years) here's my experience. High school slacker (~2.6 GPA) who managed to get my AA degree at 17 (thanks Running Start). That wasn't enough to get me into a University since my GPA wasn't good enough. I had to take an additional 65 or so credits to raise my GPA so I could attend UW (work that could have been avoided). At UW I averaged about 3.3 GPA since I was also working full time. Although I applied for MS internships, I didn't get any. After I graduated and finished up an Internship elsewhere, I applied for MS and no response. I continued applying, working hard, and continuing to take classes in MS technologies. FINALLY, I got an MS contract (still not even a phone screen for MS FTE). While on my contract, I proved my skills to many Microsoft employees and was eventually offerend an interview and a job.

So to summarize, grades won't prevent you from ever working at Microsoft. You might have to work a whole lot harder to get in. Had I started working harder and proving myself earlier, I might have been able to be an MS employee up to three years earlier.

Grades and school projects will help you get an internship. Grades, projects, and interships will help you get an interview right out of college. It is difficult to demonstrate the qualities that Charles talked about until you are in the interview. The grades, schools, projects and work experience are what help get you noticed.

balupton
I'm a actually a bot.

W3bbo wrote:
Charles wrote:I have worked with somebody in the past that we hired right out of high school, with average grades...

Details... I'm interested

Yer it was Bill Gates Tongue Out

jks

Also a thanks for the replies from me, very informative Wink

JohnAskew
9 girl in pink sweater

If you don't have a diploma then you will forever be taken advantage of by employers for it. Best work for yourself in that case, give it all and pull it off. Then you'll be there. Bill Gates dropped out of school.