Apple and vendor lock-down? | The Coffeehouse

ddewbofh
And so the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

In the light of tonight's announcements something hit me. Am I the only who's concerned about Apple's vendor lockdown? From what I've understood about itunes is that either you use itunes music store (driven by apple) or nothing at all. It's sort of the same thing with the apple tv, you can only stream stuff from itunes. Apple's software is only for their hardware and if you buy their hardware (computers) then you'll have to buy their OS. Later on with the iphone will it be possible to buy it "unlocked"?

To me, the casual observer, it looks like they're trying to control the whole computer business with their company. They are controlling everything from the hardware design to the various pieces of software as well as the use of it by only allowing their own store to be used for digital purchases.

The most bizarre part to me is that MS comes off as the bad guy even though they're the ones collaborating with manufacturers as well as online merchants.

Any thoughts?

MetaGunny

I think there are a couple of things here:

1) People will always hate and attack whoever is on top. That is just a fact of life. People cheer for the underdog. I would say Microsoft doesn't put "enough" into the default installation of the operating system. It's annoying that when I need to help my brother who is computer illiterate I have to go and download an ftp client, winzip, and so on.

Also, I would say people overcher or exaggerate the underdog, or the people that are competing with Microsoft. In this case google or apple, and they make to much of it. This reminds me of a movie I watched where some kid became the manager, and he idoloized a certain player that wasn't doing well and was faced with having to kick him off the team. He said no he is going to come back, and at a game the kid went crazy when he got a decent hit and made it to first base, and the manager said isn't that overcheering a sign that it is time?

2) Of course it's vendor lock-in but there is nothing wrong with that. They can do it just because they want to make more money or force people to buy their hardware. That could make them more money, or it could hurt them. There are also some advantages to that such as the level of hardware integration and not have to deal with the problems msft does in terms of a million different device drivers out there.

Also, it may be a function of the market in the sense that they really have to, and unlike msft, can't rely on third parties to pop-up and do stuff for them. It's just completley different business models.

ronin1855

You don't have to install OS X on a mac hardware, the eula for the OS X states that you can only install it on mac hardware. I have installed yellow dog on some old G3 machines to get rid of the horrible OS 8.

jamie

google should buy apple
(google market cap 148 billion - apple 79 billion)

- jobs gets to cash out and ride off into sunset a hero (a very rich one as well)
- gives google the UI it needs
- gives google consumer machine building capability
- aligns google with disney better (youtube)

jb43081

ddewbofh wrote:
In the light of tonight's announcements something hit me. Am I the only who's concerned about Apple's vendor lockdown? From what I've understood about itunes is that either you use itunes music store (driven by apple) or nothing at all. It's sort of the same thing with the apple tv, you can only stream stuff from itunes. Apple's software is only for their hardware and if you buy their hardware (computers) then you'll have to buy their OS. Later on with the iphone will it be possible to buy it "unlocked"?

To me, the casual observer, it looks like they're trying to control the whole computer business with their company. They are controlling everything from the hardware design to the various pieces of software as well as the use of it by only allowing their own store to be used for digital purchases.

The most bizarre part to me is that MS comes off as the bad guy even though they're the ones collaborating with manufacturers as well as online merchants.

Any thoughts?

Except for one pretty disasterous "experiment" Apple has always had a closed eco system. That's one of the reasons their stuff "just works" as the commercials say. Nevermind that you limited to a few expensive options due to the lack of competition...

I don't really have a problem with Apple doing it. Frankly, when my parents asked what kind of computer to get I tried to steer them to a Mac because I didn't want to try to help my mom install a modem over the phone from 3,000 miles away. But in the end they chose Windows for the two most common reasons; it's less expensive and it's what they know.

Apple has a right to create a product and you have a right to buy it or not buy it. Same defense I've always had for Microsoft. Apple doesn't get the negative attention thought because:

The are smaller
They are percieved as "cooler"
Steve Jobs has done a killer "PR" job with respect to making people think that they are the saintly alternative to the Microsoft devil
Steve Jobs arrogance is almost infectious; he's so adament that he's right that you almost believe it too, damit! Kind of like the "Jedi Mind Trick."

Another_Darren
... than you can shake a stick at

ddewbofh wrote:
In the light of tonight's announcements something hit me. Am I the only who's concerned about Apple's vendor lockdown? From what I've understood about itunes is that either you use itunes music store (driven by apple) or nothing at all. It's sort of the same thing with the apple tv, you can only stream stuff from itunes. Apple's software is only for their hardware and if you buy their hardware (computers) then you'll have to buy their OS. Later on with the iphone will it be possible to buy it "unlocked"?

MS Zune store is open? No. You can use other music stores with DRM on it? MS locks you in but that's ok with you? Ok what should have apple used to server media to appleTV? Maybe media centre? Honestly you didn't even think about what you were typing.

ddewbofh wrote:

To me, the casual observer, it looks like they're trying to control the whole computer business with their company. They are controlling everything from the hardware design to the various pieces of software as well as the use of it by only allowing their own store to be used for digital purchases.

The most bizarre part to me is that MS comes off as the bad guy even though they're the ones collaborating with manufacturers as well as online merchants.

Any thoughts?

Well iTunes runs on Windows so they are not locking you into Macs. If you don't like iTunes then don't buy appleTV. Xbox360 service locks you to you XBox for watching downloads but again that's ok?

Change to the topic to "Must bash apple because they produced something new/good"

Xaero_Vincent
Sexy me

sirhomer wrote:

The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple did not violate federal anti-trust law.

Heh... Apple is already in hordes of lawsuits over it's iToons music store not playing fair with competitors' music players.

Antitorgo

sirhomer wrote:

The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple did not violate federal anti-trust law.

Only because a court hasn't found them to be a monopoly (yet).

The problem I have with anti-trust law is that there isn't any firm criteria for when the law has been broken. The only way that you can be found guilt is for a court to rule that way via arbitrary criteria (its not like if you have 98% of the market share or anything, it is up to the descretion of the court).

ddewbofh
And so the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

Another_Darren wrote:

ddewbofh wrote: In the light of tonight's announcements something hit me. Am I the only who's concerned about Apple's vendor lockdown? From what I've understood about itunes is that either you use itunes music store (driven by apple) or nothing at all. It's sort of the same thing with the apple tv, you can only stream stuff from itunes. Apple's software is only for their hardware and if you buy their hardware (computers) then you'll have to buy their OS. Later on with the iphone will it be possible to buy it "unlocked"?

MS Zune store is open? No. You can use other music stores with DRM on it? MS locks you in but that's ok with you? Ok what should have apple used to server media to appleTV? Maybe media centre? Honestly you didn't even think about what you were typing.

ddewbofh wrote:
To me, the casual observer, it looks like they're trying to control the whole computer business with their company. They are controlling everything from the hardware design to the various pieces of software as well as the use of it by only allowing their own store to be used for digital purchases.

The most bizarre part to me is that MS comes off as the bad guy even though they're the ones collaborating with manufacturers as well as online merchants.

Any thoughts?

Well iTunes runs on Windows so they are not locking you into Macs. If you don't like iTunes then don't buy appleTV. Xbox360 service locks you to you XBox for watching downloads but again that's ok?

Change to the topic to "Must bash apple because they produced something new/good"

I don't own a zune so I can't speak for that experience. What I can say though is that I rent movies and purchase music through different companies that hook into Windows Media Player. My problem isn't that I'm locked into WMP or DRM, my problem is that Itunes Music Store is locked to outside competitors.

With Media Center Extender (aka Xbox) you can watch stuff you get in WMP, that's true. But WMP isn't limited to one single company.

Just to put the record straight, I've used macs extensively and supported Apple in many ways during the years and I don't oppose their products in the slightest. I'm just a little annoyed over their business practises.

/Dave

ddewbofh
And so the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

DRM is a necessary evil as far as I'm concerned. I want to be able to pick up music online and for now DRM is what it takes for record and movie companies to put their stuff online. The best world would be one where everyone was honest so that DRM wasn't needed but unfortunatly that isn't the case now, so let's not get into that old argument.

Let's take Zune out of the picture for the moment, it's still a device very early in it's development and not something I would use as I'm perfectly happy with my cellphone/walkman combo. I'm thinking content now and it's availability in the different "media centers", WMP and iTunes. Last time I checked the MS DRM solution was available for 3rd parties as opposed to Apple's solution Fairplay. That's the thing that bugs me, the fact that Apple chooses to not let others into their application. On this Windows machine I can fire up WMP or media center, click a button and get access to a number of different music, movie and tv retailers.

ddewbofh
And so the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

sirhomer wrote:

ddewbofh wrote: DRM is a necessary evil

Huh? The ends justify the means? DRM is supported by the mantra of some of the world's most brutal dictators.

ddewbofh wrote:
The best world would be one where everyone was honest so that DRM wasn't needed

Incorrect, this would be the best world for Proper Authorities who want to protect us from Bad Stuff.

ddewbofh wrote:
Let's take Zune out of the picture for the moment

Let's not.

Ok, I'm amazed. You used words and actually formed them into sentences. But you still managed to say absolutely nothing. Allow me to elaborate just a little bit.

The DRM part isn't necessarily a means to an end, we're still in the infancy of the internet age. I expect that to change, not to mention that it's a choice you as a customer makes. If you can accept DRM then go for it, if not you can head down to your local record or video store and get what you want sans DRM. Speak with your wallet, if you don't like it you don't have to buy their product. Noone's forcing you.

The second statement you made was rather odd, I honestly don't know what you were trying to say with it. DRM is a way for digital media producers to attempt combatting piracy. In a world without piracy DRM wouldn't be needed. There are laws, like them or not they have to be followed.

As for the Zune, I wasn't talking about devices nor the Zune market place. I was referring to content, besides since I don't own a Zune I'm not the one to pass judgement on it. Only thing I can say about it really is that the GUI looks rather nice. Smiley

/Dave

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

sirhomer wrote:

ddewbofh wrote: DRM is a necessary evil

Huh? The ends justify the means? DRM is supported by the mantra of some of the world's most brutal dictators.

And Linus Torvalds.

thekiwiguy
Its better to burn out, than to fade away.....

These are all good points....Apple are a great design company, a great marketing company, and very good at value prop's and making things simple for customers. I take my hat to them...BUT, they are have a Halo that is much bigger than reality. Reality is that the last two things i can remember them showing any innvovation in are a) the Newton (years ahead of its time...maybe to far ahead), and the i-Tunes/IPOD business model (pure genuis). However, even the Video IPOD was not anything new....Microsoft and its PMC partners had devices that could do all of this years ago, but the sad fact was that Microsoft and its OEM partners did a terrible job telling the world about it. Same goes for Media Center PC's. Microsoft has done an "ok" job marketing these, but still Apple announced their Apple TV products as "revolutionary" and world first....again they took the high ground on a Microsoft innovation. Tablet PC is anther one...Apple announced its Tablet Apple this week....and once again they copied Microsoft. Ajax rocks, but how many people know that Ajax was invented by Microsoft?, oh and what about Web Services and Web 2.0?.....Anyone remember Billg's .NET announcement 7 years ago, and the Hailstorm work? Smells alot like what eventually has lead to this great new connected everything world we like in today online...rant, rant Big Smile

On the partner front, the only people that make $$ in the Apple world is Apple. Totally opposite to Microsft, who have armys of partners, ISV's and developers making good dosh on their platform. Maybe in the OEM area Microsft makes too many bets on OEM capabilities to deliver breakthru design...(Mac's are way sexier than any laptop out there IMHO...) When Microsft has decided to go it alone, such as with XBox and Zune they have done pretty dam good job. I think the integration of XBox Live and XBox is world class, and the new services coming down the pipe with XBox like IPTV, and Videomarket place is a great addition.

The list goes on.....Yes, i am somewhat i a Microsoft fanboy (i work there!), but credit should be given where credit it due. Microsoft is innovative, our marketing could be better, but we have a great story......!

ddewbofh
And so the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

First of all I wasn't insulting your intelligence, I was merely noting that your statements appeared rather quick "hacks" that didn't really say anything. My point was more that you seemed bored and didn't put your heart into it.

Most customers don't really care much about licenses, they want to be able to get music online in a simple fashion and listen to it on their computer and mp3 players. Let's not forget that DRM, evil or not, is still opt-in. You can still buy music on cds, rip the tracks and play them back without any DRM ever entering the picture. It's a choice that you as a customer makes.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance regarding the legality of DRM, in this part of the world it's still legal. In Sweden when you create stuff you're free to do what you want with it. If you want to sell it you can sell it any way you like. You can even keep the owner rights and just sell listening privileges. We have freedom of choice, meaning I can do whatever I want with the stuff I actually own as long as it's not physically hurting someone.

As for the Zune interface quip, my taste may differ from yours but that doesn't make it any less valid.

/Dave

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

sirhomer wrote:
I agree with you. But DRM restricts what I can do with the stuff I own.

To be precise, you don't own it. You are licensing it. That's the whole point of Digital Rights Management.

Another_Darren
... than you can shake a stick at

ddewbofh wrote:
DRM is a necessary evil as far as I'm concerned. I want to be able to pick up music online and for now DRM is what it takes for record and movie companies to put their stuff online. The best world would be one where everyone was honest so that DRM wasn't needed but unfortunatly that isn't the case now, so let's not get into that old argument.

Let's take Zune out of the picture for the moment, it's still a device very early in it's development and not something I would use as I'm perfectly happy with my cellphone/walkman combo. I'm thinking content now and it's availability in the different "media centers", WMP and iTunes. Last time I checked the MS DRM solution was available for 3rd parties as opposed to Apple's solution Fairplay. That's the thing that bugs me, the fact that Apple chooses to not let others into their application. On this Windows machine I can fire up WMP or media center, click a button and get access to a number of different music, movie and tv retailers.

So your complaint is that Apple lock out other vendors from using iTunes media because they use their own DRM. Yet you admit that DRM is a necessary evil to allow media to be downloaded.

Now let's but the Zune back in, after all the shafted all those FairPlay licencees. The Zune DRM is controlled by MS and is only used for the Zune to control it, just like iTunes! If you going to continue this vendor lock down discussion then please include MS and their Zune in the discussion or just admit your an MS fanboy.

And as for the "I don't own a Zune so...", I assume you own an iPod or AppleTV then to justify this whinging thread?

Another_Darren
... than you can shake a stick at

thekiwiguy wrote:

On the partner front, the only people that make $$ in the Apple world is Apple. Totally opposite to Microsft, who have armys of partners, ISV's and developers making good dosh on their platform. Maybe in the OEM area Microsft makes too many bets on OEM capabilities to deliver breakthru design...(Mac's are way sexier than any laptop out there IMHO...) When Microsft has decided to go it alone, such as with XBox and Zune they have done pretty dam good job. I think the integration of XBox Live and XBox is world class, and the new services coming down the pipe with XBox like IPTV, and Videomarket place is a great addition.

Zune? Shaft the FairPlay licencees? Yeah MS played fair with the partners, ISV's, etc there. Honestly most C9 fanboys can't see past the MS press releases!

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

Another_Darren wrote:

Honestly most C9 fanboys can't see past the MS press releases!

Seriously, you're making some good arguments here. Why the need to resort to namecalling at the end?

Another_Darren
... than you can shake a stick at

Bas wrote:

Another_Darren wrote:
Honestly most C9 fanboys can't see past the MS press releases!

Seriously, you're making some good arguments here. Why the need to resort to namecalling at the end?

Because if it was a factual debate then I'd consider the poster to have real point of view, but when he posts a thread to slag Apple off then he's acting like an MS fanboy. The guy has issues with Apple locking the hardware to their iTunes store? So does the Zune but when you mention that he just says "I don't have one", so assuming his issue is because he does own an iPod then he's still not locked to iTunes, he can buy CD's and rip them into iTunes he does not have to buy from iTunes. But to be honest I doubt he even has a iPod and is just having ago at Apple locking you in and forgot MS do it too.

LaBomba
Summer

jamie wrote:
google should buy apple
(google market cap 148 billion - apple 79 billion)

- jobs gets to cash out and ride off into sunset a hero (a very rich one as well)
- gives google the UI it needs
- gives google consumer machine building capability
- aligns google with disney better (youtube)

At the keynote, Jobs had Eric Schmidt come on stage and he joked about apple and google merging to form: "Goople".

After that he made the point, that each company should stick to what they do best.

re: jobs gets to cash out and ride off into sunset
you don't know much about Jobs do you? Expressionless

jb43081

sirhomer wrote:

The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple did not violate federal anti-trust law.