Vista "upgrade" drops compliance checking, requires old OS to install

cescotto

http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Vista_upgrade_drops_compliance_checking_requires_old_OS_to_install

Would somebody please explain me this?

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070128-8717.html is the real link.

What part is unclear to you? Ars spells it out pretty verbosely in my opinion.

During an XP install on a formatted hd, you can just put in a Windows 2000 cd and it will continue. If the article is correct, you will need to have windows already installed on the box.

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070128-8717.html is the real link.

What part is unclear to you? Ars spells it out pretty verbosely in my opinion.

During an XP install on a formatted hd, you can just put in a Windows 2000 cd and it will continue. If the article is correct, you will need to have windows already installed on the box.

With XP I can make a clean install with a 2k CD, but what about Vista?

Is it true that I will be forced first to install XP, then to install Vista over it ending up with a dirty install?

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

PetKnep wrote: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070128-8717.html is the real link.

What part is unclear to you? Ars spells it out pretty verbosely in my opinion.

During an XP install on a formatted hd, you can just put in a Windows 2000 cd and it will continue. If the article is correct, you will need to have windows already installed on the box.

With XP I can make a clean install with a 2k CD, but what about Vista?

Is it true that I will be forced first to install XP, then to install Vista over it ending up with a dirty install?

The whole point of the article is to let you know about http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/930985/en-us

The KB says you can't just install Vista on a formatted hd by putting in the XP cd. You will have to install XP first.

I still don't get what part of this was unclear from the original article.

"Dirty install"? Give me a break...

SecretSoftware
Code to live, but Live to code.

When you install Vista, it will rename your old windows installation to Windows.Old.

You can delete that folder later on.

But I guess he is asking , why not be able to install the Vista image directly from DVD, without having an OS already in the machine. Similar to when you install Win 98 or XP on a formatted HD.

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

The whole point of the article is to let you know about http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/930985/en-us

The KB says you can't just install Vista on a formatted hd by putting in the XP cd. You will have to install XP first.

I still don't get what part of this was unclear from the original article.

So the article is right, from Vista people will be forced to install OVER a precedent XP install. On XP instead you could have done a clean install without having to install windows 2000 first.

PetKnep wrote:

"Dirty install"? Give me a break...

http://www.eweek.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=27381&a=187782&po=3,00.asp?p=y

I can't wait when i'll have to upgrade some of my friends laptops that have plenty of crapware installed by the recovery disc (and no clean XP install cd) that will be ported to the new vista install. Great!!!!!

cescotto

SecretSoftware wrote:
When you install Vista, it will rename your old windows installation to Windows.Old.

You can delete that folder later on.

But I guess he is asking , why not be able to install the Vista image directly from DVD, without having an OS already in the machine. Similar to when you install Win 98 or XP on a formatted HD.

The point was that most laptops and PCs come with XP recovery CDs, and not with clean XP cds. So people will be forced to upgrade XP installs full of crapware (that gets installed by the recovery disc) that will be moved to vista.

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

http://www.eweek.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=27381&a=187782&po=3,00.asp?p=y

What am I supposed to see in the link? All I see is http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/13/0,1425,sz=1&i=138523,00.jpg

A windows upgrade screen. I don't get it.

Ok, you're dissatisfied with the new system. Why didn't you make that your original argument?

SecretSoftware
Code to live, but Live to code.

cescotto wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote:When you install Vista, it will rename your old windows installation to Windows.Old.

You can delete that folder later on.

But I guess he is asking , why not be able to install the Vista image directly from DVD, without having an OS already in the machine. Similar to when you install Win 98 or XP on a formatted HD.

The point was that most laptops and PCs come with XP recovery CDs, and not with clean XP cds. So people will be forced to upgrade XP installs full of crapware (that gets installed by the recovery disc) that will be moved to vista.

ALL of the "crapware" will be in the Windows.Old folder which you can delete. The Clean Vista Image will be installed in a seperate folder.

You can delete the windows.Old, that you think is full of crapware.

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote: When you install Vista, it will rename your old windows installation to Windows.Old.

You can delete that folder later on.

But I guess he is asking , why not be able to install the Vista image directly from DVD, without having an OS already in the machine. Similar to when you install Win 98 or XP on a formatted HD.

The point was that most laptops and PCs come with XP recovery CDs, and not with clean XP cds. So people will be forced to upgrade XP installs full of crapware (that gets installed by the recovery disc) that will be moved to vista.

Isn't that the OEMs fault? You should ask for a full install, not a recovery cd. They put on the helper apps, not MS.

AFIAK you can not accept the EULAs (at least at Dell) if you don't like the software they've installed (before running it at least) and return the box.

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

SecretSoftware wrote:

ALL of the "crapware" will be in the Windows.Old folder which you can delete. The Clean Vista Image will be installed in a seperate folder.

You can delete the windows.Old, that you think is full of crapware.

No, all the software (desired or not) should remain installed in Vista if it was installed under XP before upgrading.

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

cescotto wrote:

http://www.eweek.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=27381&a=187782&po=3,00.asp?p=y

What am I supposed to see in the link? All I see is http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/13/0,1425,sz=1&i=138523,00.jpg

A windows upgrade screen. I don't get it.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22956121_ITM

While our upgrade experience was fairly good, we recommend that administrators opt instead for a clean install, teamed perhaps with Vista's Windows Easy Transfer utility for carrying over files and settings from the previous install. Not only is a clean install much faster than an upgrade, our tests show, but the significant changes in how Windows Vista handles software installation bring the possibility of compatibility issues that might not be immediately apparent.

PetKnep wrote:

Ok, you're dissatisfied with the new system. Why didn't you make that your original argument?

I thought that was obvious when reading this thread's title. The point is, can a clean install be done after vista verified the existance of an XP install or am I forced to upgrade that XP install?

SecretSoftware
Code to live, but Live to code.

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote:
ALL of the "crapware" will be in the Windows.Old folder which you can delete. The Clean Vista Image will be installed in a seperate folder.

You can delete the windows.Old, that you think is full of crapware.

No, all the software (desired or not) should remain installed in Vista if it was installed under XP before upgrading.

I am talking about the Windows folder being infected with spyware and other stuff (system32 etc..)

And yes, all software (Acrobat readers , Mp3 players etc..) will be there.

cescotto

SecretSoftware wrote:

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote:
ALL of the "crapware" will be in the Windows.Old folder which you can delete. The Clean Vista Image will be installed in a seperate folder.

You can delete the windows.Old, that you think is full of crapware.

No, all the software (desired or not) should remain installed in Vista if it was installed under XP before upgrading.

I am talking about the Windows folder being infected with spyware and other stuff (system32 etc..)

And yes, all software (Acrobat readers , Mp3 players etc..) will be there.

I was talking about all those crappy applications bundled in the recover CDs that you get with newer PCs and laptops (and obviously all the registry stuff that vista will probably import from the old XP install).

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22956121_ITM

While our upgrade experience was fairly good, we recommend that administrators opt instead for a clean install, teamed perhaps with Vista's Windows Easy Transfer utility for carrying over files and settings from the previous install. Not only is a clean install much faster than an upgrade, our tests show, but the significant changes in how Windows Vista handles software installation bring the possibility of compatibility issues that might not be immediately apparent.

Well, I can't read the article so I can't refute any of its points. I'll have to just refute the summary with anecdotal evidence.

My dell laptop was upgraded from XP to Vista RTM on the day of RTM, still going strong. I think everyone will be ok.

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

Well, I can't read the article so I can't refute any of its points. I'll have to just refute the summary with anecdotal evidence.

My dell laptop was upgraded from XP to Vista RTM on the day of RTM, still going strong. I think everyone will be ok.

What about all the people that upgrade their computer components often? Every time they upgrade a motherboard and vista stops working because of drivers issues, they'll have to format, reinstall xp, and install vista every time?

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

PetKnep wrote:

Well, I can't read the article so I can't refute any of its points. I'll have to just refute the summary with anecdotal evidence.

My dell laptop was upgraded from XP to Vista RTM on the day of RTM, still going strong. I think everyone will be ok.

What about all the people that upgrade their computer components often? Every time they upgrade a motherboard and vista stops working because of drivers issues, they'll have to format, reinstall xp, and install vista every time?

People upgrade their computers often, yes. This forces a reinstall of Windows? I haven't heard of a case where someone changed the motherboard under XP and "driver issues" warranted a reinstall. I definately haven't heard of a case under Vista.

Now you're just speculating about events that might happen in the future with no evidence to back up that such a condition exists.

SecretSoftware
Code to live, but Live to code.

PetKnep wrote:

cescotto wrote:

PetKnep wrote:

Well, I can't read the article so I can't refute any of its points. I'll have to just refute the summary with anecdotal evidence.

My dell laptop was upgraded from XP to Vista RTM on the day of RTM, still going strong. I think everyone will be ok.

What about all the people that upgrade their computer components often? Every time they upgrade a motherboard and vista stops working because of drivers issues, they'll have to format, reinstall xp, and install vista every time?

People upgrade their computers often, yes. This forces a reinstall of Windows? I haven't heard of a case where someone changed the motherboard under XP and "driver issues" warranted a reinstall. I definately haven't heard of a case under Vista.

Now you're just speculating about events that might happen in the future with no evidence to back up that such a condition exists.

What about a virus hitting the OS?

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

SecretSoftware wrote:
What about a virus hitting the OS?

Ha, don't get malware. UAC should stop it from getting into the kernel. User mode stuff shouldn't require a machine wiping.

Well I'm done playing "What if?". I quit the thread. Original question answered. Just getting silly now. Have fun without me though Big Smile

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

People upgrade their computers often, yes. This forces a reinstall of Windows? I haven't heard of a case where someone changed the motherboard under XP and "driver issues" warranted a reinstall. I definately haven't heard of a case under Vista.

If it would have been that easy to replace hardware (especially nvidia/via hardware) tools like preinst to seal XP installs wouldn't have ever been needed.

If you change from a motherboard with a chipset to a motherboard with another chipset of a different family there's an high probability that XP won't boot, not even in safe mode.

PetKnep wrote:

Now you're just speculating about events that might happen in the future with no evidence to back up that such a condition exists.

It happened to me too: I changed my ULI motherboard to an intel motherboard (core2duo) and Vista had the same identical problem: I had to reinstall again.

This is often caused by the chipset ide drivers, that usually install extra (driver) services that crash when the hardware is different from what they expect.

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote: What about a virus hitting the OS?

Ha, don't get malware. UAC should stop it from getting into the kernel. User mode stuff shouldn't require a machine wiping.

Well I'm done playing "What if?". I quit the thread. Original question answered. Just getting silly now. Have fun without me though

Well I should ask you: what will happen when the DIGG story I posted will tomorrow hit DIGG's front page? Be sure to read the comments to find out what most people think about windows upgrades, because nobody got good experiences on XP.

SecretSoftware
Code to live, but Live to code.

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote:What about a virus hitting the OS?

Ha, don't get malware. UAC should stop it from getting into the kernel. User mode stuff shouldn't require a machine wiping.

Well I'm done playing "What if?". I quit the thread. Original question answered. Just getting silly now. Have fun without me though

So its the user's fault if they get hit with a virus. UAC will not stop it from getting into the kernel. There is an elevation exploit out in the wild for UAC already.

If people dont like vista , they should just not install it. XP works just fine.

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

cescotto wrote:

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote: What about a virus hitting the OS?

Ha, don't get malware. UAC should stop it from getting into the kernel. User mode stuff shouldn't require a machine wiping.

Well I'm done playing "What if?". I quit the thread. Original question answered. Just getting silly now. Have fun without me though

Well I should ask you: what will happen when the DIGG story I posted will tomorrow hit DIGG's front page? Be sure to read the comments to find out what most people think about windows upgrades, because nobody got good experiences on XP.

Why wait til tomorrow? Slashdot had it a couple hours ago.
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/28/2240200.shtml

What will happen? I don't know. I always read the digg comments, good stuff.

Nobody had a good XP experience? That's a bit hard to believe.

Well, I didn't get to quit the thread yet...

What caused you to reinstall? A kernel bug check? Even booting to safe mode to install a different driver couldn't resolve the issue? I'm not sure what the accepted fix is for that situation, but I'm guessing it's not reinstall.

PetKnep
IE7 RTM'd yay!

SecretSoftware wrote:

PetKnep wrote:

SecretSoftware wrote: What about a virus hitting the OS?

Ha, don't get malware. UAC should stop it from getting into the kernel. User mode stuff shouldn't require a machine wiping.

Well I'm done playing "What if?". I quit the thread. Original question answered. Just getting silly now. Have fun without me though

So its the user's fault if they get hit with a virus. UAC will not stop it from getting into the kernel. There is an elevation exploit out in the wild for UAC already.

If people dont like vista , they should just not install it. XP works just fine.

Link to exploit?

cescotto

PetKnep wrote:

Nobody had a good XP experience? That's a bit hard to believe.

I mean an "XP upgrade experience".

PetKnep wrote:

What caused you to reinstall? A kernel bug check? Even booting to safe mode to install a different driver couldn't resolve the issue? I'm not sure what the accepted fix is for that situation, but I'm guessing it's not reinstall.

Yes it was a bugcheck, happening in safe mode too like it was happening on XP when changing other motherboards. The other solution would have been to restore the Vista install but then the problem still persists, the restored vista won't have been as good as a clean install.

Vista &quot;upgrade&quot; drops compliance checking, requires old OS to install