Microsoft takes on the FREE World | The Coffeehouse

eagle

Microsoft claims that free software like Linux, which runs a big chunk of corporate America, violates 235 of its patents. It wants royalties from distributors and users.

The chairs must be flying in Redmond....

jamie

"That's not a bridge we've crossed," says CEO Ballmer, "and not a bridge I want to cross today on the phone with you."

eery

thanks for that eagle. Not that it wasnt the most depressing and self destructive thing ms has done since disbanding the internet platform and tools division... you know.. the team that could have saved ms..

bah ~~im on leave~~ as if... but id LIKE to be!

k2t0f12d
The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society

jamie wrote:
Not that it wasnt the most depressing and self destructive thing ms has done since disbanding the internet platform and tools division... you know.. the team that could have saved ms..

No, you are mistaken. Deep down Ballmer is really a very nice man that would never think of trying to squeeze a dime out of anyone else's hard work with legal trickery.

jamie

"look - what are you a commie? its got tomatoes and oregano and noodles in it - therefore it undermines our lasagne patent - it must be lasange if it has noodles and oregano and tomatos in it!"

cook anything you like - just pay us

math = unpatentable - recipes = for disaster

___________

= get RID of ballmer

k2t0f12d
The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society

jamie wrote:
"look - what are you a commie? its got tomatoes and oregano and noodles in it - therefore it undermines our lasagne patent - it must be lasange if it has noodles and oregano and tomatos in it!"

cook anything you like - just pay us

math = unpatentable - recipes = for disaster

___________

= get RID of ballmer

Jamie, have you ever read about how much money these men have? If I met someone who earned a million dollars, I'd congratulate them. Fifty million, very well done indeed. But explain to me how a man of any character can draw a windfall of personal fortune in the billions of dollars and retain any of their humanity whatsoever? How can anything they do or say surprise anyone? What can anyone possibly do or say to embarrass them more then then size of their wallets should?

jamie

well i wouldnt go that far

they invented software (over hardware) so they are all rich

cool

no prob

but the main issue is BillG was wrong
Letter to hobbiests was wrong

they had a good run
but in the end - people have a hard time paying for invisible things like software and music and movies..

sure - i rent 4 or 5 dvds a week - i will buy a new xtc or prefab sprout album. i will buy windows with a new machine - all tangible in your hand items

but in general - everything is moving back to how it was BEFORE the letter

buy an ipod - it comes with an os - you dont buy bits

this is whats being "undermined" and why MS has decided not to compete - but instead to prop up its old 20 year mantra - the letter - which is now wrong

every day in denial is a day less worth of credability

"you still an ms fanatic?" " err ya .. i try to be..."

PS - sorry for sounding like a mad scoble Wink

jamie

i am confused..

call out to fierce- capitalist / democracy persons on C9

please post why this is good (patents / suing)

ive thought about it.. and cant see the new nuclear family paradigm working for anything but the consumer

i - personally - see a modest , slow revolt against the big box/non- green corp's and those companies in turn - slowly will adapt - and capitalism/democracy will continue

what i dont see is a family brand like microsoft suing its users... continuing to advicate a 20 yr old letter...

xbox will work. zune - once fixed will work. these are tangible items

suing wont work?

eagle

This is a conversation that needs to happen.

The FOSS community has many factions that also need to have this conversation.

There isn't going to be a big court room battle, this is going to be about diplomacy and negotiations.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

jamie wrote:
i am confused..

call out to fierce- capitalist / democracy persons on C9

please post why this is good (patents / suing)

This is neither good nor bad. But it might be a way to fix the problem. I don't buy some people's idea that software can never be patented -- though we know that the big boys have been running a patent gold-rush for the past few years. I'm willing to bet that the majority won't stand up to closer scrutiny.

jamie wrote:

ive thought about it.. and cant see the new nuclear family paradigm working for anything but the consumer

Well, yeah, but the new nuclear family is composed of the big boys who have patents to trade to each other.

"What's that you say? You only have 10 piddly patents? Ha!"

Even though the Court has made it easier to invalidate bad patents, having an approved patent is heckuvalot better than not.

[/quote]
i - personally - see a modest , slow revolt against the big box/non- green corp's and those companies in turn - slowly will adapt - and capitalism/democracy will continue

jamie wrote:

suing wont work?

I don't know. I'm still holding out for a small, insignificant company holding microsoft patent-balls in a vice. Maybe Richard Stallman's group should be filing for patents Smiley

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

jamie wrote:

well i wouldnt go that far

they invented software (over hardware) so they are all rich

cool

no prob

but the main issue is BillG was wrong
Letter to hobbiests was wrong

they had a good run
but in the end - people have a hard time paying for invisible things like software and music and movies..

sure - i rent 4 or 5 dvds a week - i will buy a new xtc or prefab sprout album. i will buy windows with a new machine - all tangible in your hand items

but in general - everything is moving back to how it was BEFORE the letter

buy an ipod - it comes with an os - you dont buy bits

this is whats being "undermined" and why MS has decided not to compete - but instead to prop up its old 20 year mantra - the letter - which is now wrong

every day in denial is a day less worth of credability

"you still an ms fanatic?" " err ya .. i try to be..."

PS - sorry for sounding like a mad scoble

I've just read the letter. I must say I agree with it. Smiley

In my opinion everyone has the righ to sell software and it's nothing immoral about it.

Jamie, why do you think selling software is any different than selling cars or medicines? In automobile industry enineers have to produce recipees which they latter feed into robots which in turn create us cars. The same in pharamceutical industry, they also have to first create a 'program' which will then create pills. When you go to car dealer, do you b!tch to the salesman why cars are not for free?

Software industry is in my opinion the same as any other. The fact that might surprise you is that a lot of GPLed software and even linux kernel is written by corporations that sell software, like IBM and Novell.

TimP

This has nothing to do with selling software. The issue is Microsoft is essentially saying, you're using a program based on an idea we had, we didn't actually write any of the code, but since it's our idea, pay us for using it unless you want to get sued.

jamie

this topic is too big.. i dont want to get into any fights with any 9er friends

we are a community - friends of ms

i guess my point is - i disagree with the way MS are "competing" with community built software

communities like c9?

anand.t

actually microsoft is talking on the anti-microsoft world. OSS today is just limited to overthrowing windows and office. They are not worried about the closed software IBM has. :O Gonna be interesting though, but I am sure balmer is not a noob Wink

Probably he is just trying to put some doubts in the minds of big companies, who will be happy to either shell out some millions as royalty or will continue to use windows. Also you cannot fully that IBM, SUN and Google will just line up and help the penguin. Its a complicated world.

Reg. the assumption in slashdot and digg that microsoft empire is crumbling, I am sorry but it is not. They are one of the best capitalist company out there. By capitalist I mean oppurtunistic. They have no values just like you and me and ibm and sun and google. They have to show profit to their shareholders. Remember the past, they developed OS2. They will be eager to work on anything if that gives them profit. THis is exactly what IBM and Oracle are doing now.

So the bottom line is, microsofts profit is going to fall sooner or later, but still they will be earning more than what companies like SUN can only dream of

Xaero_Vincent
Sexy me

235 patents aye?

Yeah patents on menu bars, file systems, scroll bars, task bar, double clicking, emoticon smileys, etc.

I already knew FOSS violated software patents. For instance when I use NTFS-3g, I realize thats it represents a patent violation right then and there because NTFS is patented file system technology.

I dare anyone write a significant piece of software that doesnt violate at least one of the millions of software patents out there. The only thing you'll likely end up with is a console app that prints "Hello World!" (sort to speak).

Just wait what happens when Microsoft tries suing FOSS users. It will be the start of civil war and patent retaliation by big FOSS supporters as a way to protect their vested interests.

You likely hear about protests and raids outside Microsoft's Redmond campus and mass boycotting of their products. It can get very ugly very quickly when people who already hate you with passion are further invoked with threats.

Im not upset nor hate Microsoft yet but that could change in the event of litigation threats to the people. I too would be threatended as both a user of FOSS solutions and Microsoft products.

The FOSS movement could never exist if traditional patent laws were enforced upon them. It wouldn't be free anymore in any sense of the word and it would be feeding the greed of a huge entity who has a history of never providing anything but threats and taunts.

rjdohnert
You will never know success until you know failure

If it violates MS patents then yes they should pay. I personally dont care about civil wars or how much the OSS community tries to demonize Microsoft. IP is IP and until the law is changed its owned by Microsoft. The software industry is an industry with competitors and laws and the OSS community needs to abide by those laws. No amount of preventive language you throw in a license can violate the law.

Dr Herbie
Horses for courses

Shock! Corporate executives doing what they are paid to do!

Horror! Microsoft Shareholders want to make money.

Oh, the humanity!

Herbie

Xaero_Vincent
Sexy me

rjdohnert wrote:
If it violates MS patents then yes they should pay. I personally dont care about civil wars or how much the OSS community tries to demonize Microsoft. IP is IP and until the law is changed its owned by Microsoft. The software industry is an industry with competitors and laws and the OSS community needs to abide by those laws. No amount of preventive language you throw in a license can violate the law.

Then the FOSS movement could never exist.

The current software patent laws and the requirement to pay royalties are a substantial threat to the entire movement itself.

Software patent law needs major reform if not total abolishment. I'm not strickly refering to FOSS; the system has become so out of control that software companies are only creating a liability for themselves each time they bring their product onto the market.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Xaero_Vincent wrote:

rjdohnert wrote:If it violates MS patents then yes they should pay. I personally dont care about civil wars or how much the OSS community tries to demonize Microsoft. IP is IP and until the law is changed its owned by Microsoft. The software industry is an industry with competitors and laws and the OSS community needs to abide by those laws. No amount of preventive language you throw in a license can violate the law.

Then the FOSS movement could never exist.

The current software patent laws and the requirement to pay royalties are a substantial threat to the entire movement itself.

Ah so it's OK to ignore laws you don't agree with?

I can't wait to see that argued in court.

MS are stuck between Scylla and Charybdis with this. They have an obligation to shareholders to chase patent violations; but they'll come off like bullies if they do, and may well drive a change in patent law.

Chadk
excuse me - do you has a flavor?

Wait. Whats that?

They are whining about microsoft claiming their rights, which all companies do?

How funny! EVIL MICRO$$$$$$$OFT!!!!!

Xaero_Vincent
Sexy me

blowdart wrote:
MS are stuck between Scylla and Charybdis with this. They have an obligation to shareholders to chase patent violations; but they'll come off like bullies if they do, and may well drive a change in patent law.

What needs to be done now is a formal report by Microsoft of exactly which patents are being violated in which applications. This data could then be used to make the appropriate alterations to bypass the violations in the software. Patents violations that cannot be realistically worked around need to be aquired by OIN and shared under public domain.

I think that would be a better solution than risk lossing all their "good will" PR and gain a new, far more negative image in the IT world. This is not to mention a total outright war with millions of OS supporters plus people who merely dislike Microsoft's response and a surge of counter suits by companies with vested interests in FOSS, such as Big Blue and Red Hat.

Ray6

Xaero_Vincent wrote:

What needs to be done now is a formal report by Microsoft of exactly which patents are being violated in which applications. This data could then be used to make the appropriate alterations to bypass the violations in the software. Patents violations that cannot be realistically worked around need to be aquired by OIN and shared under public domain.

I don't think it is as simple as this. They're not talking about some piece of code that MS thinks has been copied (which would be very easy to fix); they're talking about an idea or a solution to a problem that has been copied. To get around this, then the FOSS community would need to come up with a new, unpatented idea to achieve the same result. And this is where the problem lies. FOSS is about taking existing ideas, rehashing them, then giving them away for free; so this was bound to happen sooner or later. The real problem is that they have no desire or capacity for generating new ideas, so even if MS did issue a formal statement detailiing the ideas that have been copied, I don't think that FOSS would be able to do anything about it.

Erisan

Microsoft -- Latest Patents

Dr Herbie
Horses for courses

Xaero_Vincent wrote:

blowdart wrote: MS are stuck between Scylla and Charybdis with this. They have an obligation to shareholders to chase patent violations; but they'll come off like bullies if they do, and may well drive a change in patent law.

What needs to be done now is a formal report by Microsoft of exactly which patents are being violated in which applications. This data could then be used to make the appropriate alterations to bypass the violations in the software. Patents violations that cannot be realistically worked around need to be aquired by OIN and shared under public domain.

I think that would be a better solution than risk lossing all their "good will" PR and gain a new, far more negative image in the IT world. This is not to mention a total outright war with millions of OS supporters plus people who merely dislike Microsoft's response and a surge of counter suits by companies with vested interests in FOSS, such as Big Blue and Red Hat.

And how would that make money for Microsoft?

'Good Will' PR is kind of like credit: it will be 'spent' to put money in the bank and then re-grown through other cheap projects.

Actually, I don't know if Microsoft will ever use these patents, or just wave them around in a coldwar-esque 'mutually assured destruction' scenario. Someone on Slashdot pointed out that IBM has quite a stake in the OSS world, and they hold a lot of patents that they could threaten Microsoft with.

Herbie

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Xaero_Vincent wrote:

blowdart wrote:MS are stuck between Scylla and Charybdis with this. They have an obligation to shareholders to chase patent violations; but they'll come off like bullies if they do, and may well drive a change in patent law.

What needs to be done now is a formal report by Microsoft of exactly which patents are being violated in which applications. This data could then be used to make the appropriate alterations to bypass the violations in the software. Patents violations that cannot be realistically worked around need to be aquired by OIN and shared under public domain.

So what you're suggesting is a complete sea change? That companies that hold patents will be responsible for patrolling everyone else's code?

How exactly is that going to work? (simple answer, it isn't)

As for selling the patents to OIN, to allow patent violations to "get away with it", why? Why on earth should they?

Massif
aim stupidly high, expect to fail often.

I welcome it, one way or another a full out legal battle over software patents will clear things up.

Either, many open source software products do violate patents, and will be caught out - because profiting from someone else's research is naughty. Freeing businesses to invest heavily in research without worrying that someone will steal their work.

Or, software patents themselves will be found wanting as a concept; and will have to be abolished. Freeing businesses to innovate wherever they want, without worrying about being sued for stealing someone's work.

Or, patents will be upheld as a concept, but the projects named will be found innocent, clarifying what needs to happen to violate a patent and making everything much clearer.

I can't see a losing situation (for the world at large) so unless someone can spell one out to me, I say full speed ahead.