What's going on at Microsoft? | The Coffeehouse

Stebet
Buuuurrrritoooo!

It feels like Microsoft is stuck in it's treads or has ground to a complete halt in some aspects lately. Orcas looks really really exciting though, and so does Surface, Windows Home Server and Windows Server 2008. But those are mainly new products that have been in development for a long time. There are a couple of things that have really bothered me lately.

1. Long Zheng has just pointed out the Microsofts appalling commitment to the Ultimate Extras program. He thinks customers have been screwed over and i have to agree, they have been. It's been 6 months since Vista was officially released and we're still stuck with the same Ultimate Extras since then and Dreamscene seems nowhere close to get out of it's Beta status. We've been shown "possible" Extras (developed by MS Research if i remember correctly) a long time ago but heard nothing since. Way to show Microsofts support for the enthusiasts.

I ask the same as Long Zheng, Where's the responsibility?!

2. Just recently the Messenger team launched the Windows Live Messenger 8.5 Beta complete with a UI overhaul (yet again). I immediately thought "Finally Microsoft are going to give us something cool, perhaps a WPF powered Messenger since Yahoo seem to be well on their way with their own WPF powered IM". But no! A slightly changed UI that tries to imitate Aero Glass with no new features whatsoever (at least none worth upgrading for i.m.o), ONE new emoticon (do i hear a rumbling applause? no?) and get this. a NEW SETUP (amazing!). All of this most likely with even more memory usage (i'll wait until i see the final about that though). A complete let-down. We all know that the IM market is the perfect market for flashy, animated things. So what's the hold up?

We're seeing all sorts of tech demos, tutorials and lot's of really really good stuff from Microsoft regarding WPF, WCF and some research technologies for example but still Microsofts seems afraid to put it to use in it's own products (I don't count the Expression tools since they are aimed at a very small group of customers).

I ask again, what the hell is going on? Are the days of dogfooding (not just products but your own new technology) and leading by example gone? Microsoft seems to be afraid of taking chances and making changes lately. It's pretty clear to me that developer adoption of the new .NET technologies for example will be rather minor until Microsoft themselves lead by example.

And someone please wake up the Ultimate Extras team (if they even exist anymore)!

eagle

Do you have a new GPU with DirectX 10?

TiAdiMundo

I hope they are working on WPF driven apps for Vista SP1. Maybe a WPF sidebar gadget to implement Windows Live services (with an all-new Messenger)? Or a new Media Center created in WPF?

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

Agreed, the UE policy is terrible. Charles, any chance for a question on what's happening there in the "What do you want to know about Vista?" video?

I guess not...

Ray6

Have to agree with you on all points.

Showing all that cool stuff is great, but if it just lives in labs, then you may as well stop doing it.

Stebet
Buuuurrrritoooo!

eagle wrote:

Do you have a new GPU with DirectX 10?

Actually i do at home (but not at work) but what has that got to do with anything?

Koogle
I'm a Terminator - Astalavista, Vis7a!

"Long Zheng has just pointed out the Microsofts appalling commitment to the Ultimate Extras program."

mwuaha well I saw them coming a mile off, just microsoft trying to lure people into paying more for not a lot really.. I laughed at the Channel 9 videos about ultimate extras... it is a shame that they haven't really developed much more

just there games for windows live thing is joke aswel..

as for msn 8.5 well I not bothered installing the new beta mainly because I hate vista ugly minimize/close buttons... they don't fit in at all with my xp style theme... and i have no intention to switch to vista anytime time soon.. and secondaly there really isn't much new is there.. or maybe a new bunny emoticon ('.') ... yup lol.. think I'll wait for another version

mVPstar
I'm white because I smelt an onion.

Zune is another area where they have the potential to deliver cool stuff but just don't really deliver anything.

It's been, what 5 months and all they've managed to push through firmware updates are silly performance improvements (which I don't really notice) and a more random shuffle?

I understand games wont be for awhile, but they can at least do something about the currently useless wi-fi. Put text messaging on it, allow video to be shared, put a browser on it.

And then there's the expansion capability. Instead of mimicking iPod hardware, why not think of something cooler. How about release a voice recorder add on, a webcam add on, memory card reader add on.

There's just a lot of stuff you could do with a Zune, and Microsoft is more than capable of doing it. Just, they don't, which I don't get.

Stebet
Buuuurrrritoooo!

mVPstar wrote:
There's just a lot of stuff you could do with a Zune, and Microsoft is more than capable of doing it. Just, they don't, which I don't get.

Exactly. Things like this just continue to amaze me. A few years ago during the devlopment of all the new .NET stuff (WPF, WCF, Workflow etc.), the 360, Vista, Visual Studio 2005 and Zune it felt like Microsoft were finally pushing innovation and progress. Now that these products are out it just seems like the momentum disappeared and Microsoft are sitting on their thumbs.

The only exception seems to be the Visual Studio guys, i know they've been busy little bees and it's showing with all the Orcas stuff and Scott Guthrie is very good at keeping people interested.

However, the Zune hasn't progressed at all, the 360 has progressed a bit but there's always just that tiny little extra needed to really wow the consumers (the half-assed mpeg4 and container support is a good example), WCF and WPF adoption inside MS seems to be non-existant and the Ultimate Extras are dead.

It just makes me sad to see all this potential there and nothing being done about it.

eagle

LINQ

Stebet
Buuuurrrritoooo!

eagle wrote:
LINQ

Are you trying to make a point? If so, make it already!

I already said that not everything is bad. Let me spell things out so you might understand what i'm trying to say since reading seems to be so hard.

Good:
Visual Studio (that includes Orcas, LINQ and all that. An excellent example of momentum continuing after a product is released).
Windows Home Server/Surface (great innovation, let's see how their momentum builds up after release).

Bad:
Ultima Extras seems dead (broken promises, screwed over customers).
WPF/WCF adoption inside Microsoft seems to be nonexistant (a severe lack of momentum, not very encouraging for developers, we need releases, not betas/demoware).
Missed Opportunities (WLM 8.5 is the perfect candidate for a WPF/WCF app for example)
Zune/Xbox (a lot of potential going to waste, underwhelmed consumers).

Given:
Windows/Office (these things sell themselves).

Jack Poison
At what price, Freedom?

mVPstar wrote:

Zune is another area where they have the potential to deliver cool stuff but just don't really deliver anything.

It's been, what 5 months and all they've managed to push through firmware updates are silly performance improvements (which I don't really notice) and a more random shuffle?

Really...

I keep hoping that Microsoft will pull some cool stuff out of its sleeve. Surface actually got my hopes up...

But, this really feels like an abusive relationship: we keep getting told "things will get bettter.. Just you wait!!!" and "Wait the announcement next week.. You won't believe it!!". And suddently getting hugely disappointed: slapped in the face. And yet, we keep believing for some reason.

I wonder if this trend will ever turn around.. I wish Microsoft would excite us and make us proud of using their technology.

Maybe they'll even look at the results of that survey floating around on the homepage.. It seems to ask questions in this very area.

Ray6

Jack Poison wrote:

I keep hoping that Microsoft will pull some cool stuff out of its sleeve. Surface actually got my hopes up...

Then I saw the price. This is not going to make a difference to anybody for the next ten years at least. And I expect PopFly will stay in beta for the next decade or so.

The problem is lack of competition. Pure and simple. Any company will sit on its arse and do bugger all as soon as it manages to get itself a monopoly.

Perhaps Microsoft needs to be broken up for its own good.

Ray6

Looks like Mary Jo's got wind of this ...

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=513

Escamillo

Those that think that Microsoft is doing nothing might want to read this:

Report: Microsoft's TechEd 2007

mVPstar
I'm white because I smelt an onion.

Escamillo wrote:

Those that think that Microsoft is doing nothing might want to read this:

Report: Microsoft's TechEd 2007

That applies to the developer.

We're talking about end user stuff. Ultimate Extras, Zune features...that kind of thing.

Stebet
Buuuurrrritoooo!

Escamillo wrote:

Those that think that Microsoft is doing nothing might want to read this:

Report: Microsoft's TechEd 2007

Read the thread. I said there's no lack of new developer stuff which is all well and good.

Although MS doesn't seem to be using all this new development stuff themselves except to give us more development stuff (like the Expression tools). I want to see MS use WPF/WCF/Workflow etc in real world applications. There's plenty of opportunity in all these new Windows Live programs. Windows Live Messenger, Writer, Mail etc.... We need MS to lead by example and release something. Not just betas that eventually get canceled and demoware.

Why should i use all this new stuff if MS doesn't do it themselves?

Mvpstar also hits the nail on the head regarding other end user stuff like with the Zune. The Xbox 360 is another example of tons of potential being wasted.After all, it was marketed as not just a games console but as a full blown media hub.

Long Zheng (and others) have also rightly pointed out the awful Ultimate Extras situation.

typemismatch

One thing that I feel does apply to the development side and maybe what some consider slow adoption is that MS appear to be playing catch-up in a lot of areas ... but, I'm not sure their heart is in it. I think they still see everything running on the desktop and are just waiting for us to all get bored with the web.

I know asp.net ajax came out but yippy ... it really isn't anything special - even telerik controls had update panels and such long before atlas was even known and now ... nothing, it gets released and it barely lives up to other products.

I know for companies their size it is really really hard to break out of their old ways, desktop ways etc I think a lot technology is just to humour us. Another example - .net gets pushed like mad, asp.net ajax gets pushed and then blam ... we get silverlight - which doesn't need asp.net or ajax - you can do most your development in a text editor, run client-side and just expose basic data via your server so .... now what? where do we develop? we are back on the desktop ....

and maybe ... just maybe there is too much innovation! I'm sure the economy will do fine if we don't all have to upgrade hardware so often and we just take what we have now and make it work properly Smiley

-c

z2bass
AH!

No one has mentioned Silverlight yet. I really think if Microsoft isn't going to push addoption of Silverlight, it is going to be WPF all over again.

I still think that Orcas is seriously flawed. I remember the good ol' days... the days of Visual Studio 2005 Beta. I absolutly loved that program. What I really liked was all the videos, blog posts, Channel 9 things, and bug reporting. With the Orcas (oops... its now Visual Studio 2008), I just don't see that. The only employee blogging about LINQ, Silverlight, and VS 2008 is ScottGu. Everyone else just gives the same old stuff. For exaple, my reader got this about 200 times during (and 3 weeks after) Mix: "Silverlight 1.1 Beta Release". No, in fact, I STILL get the occational post about that. What is the use in that?

Microsoft has potential. Hopefully the iPhone and OSX 10.5 (CodeName Vista... I mean "Leopard") will give some compeitition.

I just thought of something... maybe the next "version of Windows" will not actually be "Windows". Maybe it will be something so different... potential, no passion. (HAHA... eat your words Microsoft!)

Nitz Walsh

Completely agree with the OP. I think 6 months is long enough to expect to see some apps from MS that really push WPF and justify the "Wow" campaign, even if they're beta releases. Heck it's not just Ultimate Extras which are part of the problem, I would have thought by now (since expecting them to ship with the OS was somehow irrational...?) we would have seen something from MS that at least gives third party developers a target to shoot for. This is an area where Apple excels; they set the standard. MS provides very nice developer tools, but they can lead the way a little more I think.

Heck, how about providing some level of WDM interaction other than the thumbnail API? Flip3D is useless guys, let some enterprising freeware/shareware authors have it and really grab the eyeballs of passing consumers.

The Windows Gaming campaign is also somewhat of a letdown; while I greatly appreciate the standards it brings and the consistency of one gamepad interface, the implementation of Live! was far worse than I would have expected. Bland & gray, littered with 360 gamepad buttons (not entirely a bad thing, but you should be able to configure that), and only working from _inside_ the game?! What's the point?

Now, make than a gee-whiz external WPF app that actually works like the 360 to notify your friends list what you're currently doing, and it would have actual value. I realize there will be improvements, I just can't understand how anyone in the Home & Entertainment division though the current implementation was worth of release. It's not as if Halo2 was a Vista launch title either (not to mention the performance is truly awful considering the graphics level - MS actually did a worse job than Gearbox in the porting.)

I certainly like Vista, and the more I use it the more I like it (except for the horrifying slow .zip uncompression and the bizarre local/network write performance - how the heck did that massive bug slip under the rader!? And where's the fix in Windows Update already?), but the user experience was touted early on and I think in some ways it's the biggest letdown so far.

Come on MS - WPF versions of Media Player 12, Messenger, DVD-Maker, etc - a very nice foil to undercut the Leopard hype. Smiley

Chadk
excuse me - do you has a flavor?

So, everything that Extras managed to deliever was an unstable version of dreamscene, and Hold'em in singleplayer, which is kinda pointless. At least make it multiplayer Perplexed

DigitalDud

I think it'll be some time before WPF pops up in any major Microsoft products. The memory footprint is too big to justify using it right now. To this day, there's not a hint of .NET being loaded in Windows or Office, at least out of the box.

ZippyV
Fired Up

Charles and Rory should pick up their cams, walk around Microsoft and find out what the problems are. Up until a manager says: "Yeah, we screwed up."

ScanIAm
On a scale of 1 to 10, people are stupid.

ZippyV wrote:
Charles and Rory should pick up their cams, walk around Microsoft and find out what the problems are. Up until a manager says: "Yeah, we screwed up."

I can't comment on if they did or didn't screw up, but it's pretty amazing how hard it is for american corporations to actually say something like this.

In fact, the only people who ever apologise for making mistakes tend to be low level workers who answer tech support questions and even then it's more like "I'm sorry that this issue happened to you" never "We're sorry, and we're actively trying to solve the issue".

I'm sure that somewhere, some lawyer is ready to tell us how admitting a failure or mistake is punishable in civil or criminal court, but ultimately, that means that the interactions we (consumers) have with them (corporations) is one in which we feel like we are being lied to.

If you screwed up, say so. Everybody has done something stupid, and putting a positive 'spin' on makes people distrust you.

ZippyV
Fired Up

Other Microsoft screw-ups with Vista Ultimate:
- Speech recognition and Text-To-Speech not available in my native language (Dutch)
- No online media in Media Center. Absolutely nothing is available in Belgium.