Document Freedom Day | The Coffeehouse

Erisan

Maddus Mattus
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

Free the forms!

Massif
aim stupidly high, expect to fail often.

For a second I thought that was going to be a helpful guide for dealing with the wide-open possibilities of modern life. An insight into choosing from the infinite plane of possibilities that an educated, independent and free person has available to them. Or perhaps a call to provide help, guides, frameworks and whitepapers on the liberation of the species and the best means of helping liberate people from other countries or cultures.

But no, it's just some political drivel about file formats. Sigh...

Maddus Mattus
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

Massif wrote:
But no, it's just some political drivel about file formats. Sigh...

I was thinking,.. (dangerous, I know)

Would an open file format free the documents?

Or is it just another way of imprisoning them?

Can documents truly be free?

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

It would have been nice and useful if they didn't resort to FUD and lies to prove their point.

For example, "...Open Document Format (ODF) because it is the only Open Standard that fits all common uses of an office document format, e.g. formatted editing and printing of documents, spreadsheets and presentations". So, what exactly is the format to define spreadsheet formulas? I mean, it's way up there in the "common uses", so... where is the standard?

Expressionless

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

PaoloM wrote:
so... where is the standard?

Here.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

W3bbo wrote:

PaoloM wrote: so... where is the standard?

Here.

Nope.

Or, can you point me to the page where it defines the standard for spreadsheet formulas definition? I'd love to implement a better spreadsheet, but I want to be strictly following ODF on that.

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

PaoloM wrote:
Or, can you point me to the page where it defines the standard for spreadsheet formulas definition?

I thought Excel was the de-facto standard. Or am I not allowed to say that?

harumscarum
out of memory

evildictaitor wrote:

PaoloM wrote: Or, can you point me to the page where it defines the standard for spreadsheet formulas definition?

I thought Excel was the de-facto standard. Or am I not allowed to say that?

only in reality

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

evildictaitor wrote:

PaoloM wrote: Or, can you point me to the page where it defines the standard for spreadsheet formulas definition?

I thought Excel was the de-facto standard. Or am I not allowed to say that?

No no, it's not an ISO blessed standard. So, about those formulas? Smiley

Erisan

Cuba, India vote no on OOXML

We vote for the approval of the proposed OOXML standard tomorrow.

Edit:

Microsoft files complaint on OOXML vote to apex office and Ministry of Consumer Affairs

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Isn't it funny that the US - where all the major companies supporting ODF are based - is voting yes to this, obviously deeply flawed, OOXML standard?

I mean, where is Sun, IBM, Red Hat, Google, Oracle support to the US vote?

*crickets*

SwamiYogurt

PaoloM wrote:

No no, it's not an ISO blessed standard. So, about those formulas?

ISO/IEC 14977:1996

Rossj

PaoloM wrote:
So, what exactly is the format to define spreadsheet formulas?

Maybe they're going with your guys excuses and saying it is application specific data - and we all know that app specific stuff shouldn't go in the document spec (ooops).

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Rossj wrote:

PaoloM wrote: So, what exactly is the format to define spreadsheet formulas?

Maybe they're going with your guys excuses and saying it is application specific data - and we all know that app specific stuff shouldn't go in the document spec (ooops).

So, there's no standard.

It's ok, nobody is perfect, but don't go around claiming that it's an application-agnostic format.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

SwamiYogurt wrote:

ISO/IEC 14977:1996

?

"Defines a notation, Extended BNF, for specifying the syntax of a linear sequence of symbols. It defines both the logical structure of the notation and its graphical representation."

Should I post a picture of a lolcat, to keep the relevance? Smiley

Rossj

PaoloM wrote:
It's ok, nobody is perfect, but don't go around claiming that it's an application-agnostic format.

I'm unsure whether I'd rather not have a spec than a completely borked one? At least the ODF guys have a working group together, and I am fairly sure they'll remember to specify whether the math funcs use radians or degrees Smiley

The ECMA guys *did* read it didn't they?

Disclaimer: Working with second-hand info, I haven't actually read the OOXML spec, not because I have a life - just because it is huuuuge.

Edit: Paolo, I didn't realise you were towing the company line ...

Wikipedia wrote:
In 2005, Microsoft's Brian Jones noted that OpenDocument did not define spreadsheet formulas in detail.^[6] However, at the time Microsoft's competing proprietary XML format also did not include this kind of detailed specification for formulas.^[7]
Microsoft continued to protest that OpenDocument could not be used because it did not define a format for spreadsheet formulas, yet its own specification continued to omit any specification about formulas through April 2006. Finally, in May 2006, Microsoft also began defining formulas in itsXML format, fifteen months after the first version of OpenFormula and three months after OASIS posted its first official draft of its specification.

Paolo, just in case it isn't obvious, I really don't care about either OOXML or ODF - I'm just bored ...

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Rossj wrote:
Paolo, just in case it isn't obvious, I really don't care about either OOXML or ODF - I'm just bored ...

Yeah, it's ok....

It's not like any of this is of real importance compared to real issues like, say, my upcoming wedding Smiley

Rossj

I didn't get an invite Sad

How will I ever be your Nemesis (everyone needs one) if I don't get to meet you - but congrats all the same Smiley

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

Rossj wrote:
I didn't get an invite How will I ever be your Nemesis (everyone needs one) if I don't get to meet you - but congrats all the same

Oh, you wouldn't come. It's in Europe Smiley

Rossj

especially now Italy has banned Mozarella

Bass
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

I'd like it if Microsoft Office 2007 had native ODF (OpenDocument) support built in. Hopefully the next version will.

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

Bass wrote:
I'd like it if Microsoft Office 2007 had native ODF (OpenDocument) support built in. Hopefully the next version will.

I doubt Microsoft will do it - it will lead to more competition against Microsoft products by popularising ODF.

That being said it's entirely possible to do-it-yourself given that the ODF format is open and documented and you can now build addins for Microsoft Office using Visual Studio 2008.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

evildictaitor wrote:

Bass wrote: I'd like it if Microsoft Office 2007 had native ODF (OpenDocument) support built in. Hopefully the next version will.

I doubt Microsoft will do it - it will lead to more competition against Microsoft products by popularising ODF.

That being said it's entirely possible to do-it-yourself given that the ODF format is open and documented and you can now build addins for Microsoft Office using Visual Studio 2008.

And the fact that there already is an ODF plugin for Office 2007 Smiley

Bass
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

evildictaitor wrote:

Bass wrote:I'd like it if Microsoft Office 2007 had native ODF (OpenDocument) support built in. Hopefully the next version will.

I doubt Microsoft will do it - it will lead to more competition against Microsoft products by popularising ODF.

Better not say that too loudly. IIRC that's the exact same thing the European Union is saying is illegal within context of their communication protocols.