Is it just me or are we hearing alot of.... | The Coffeehouse

Cybermagellan
Live for nothing, or die for everything

I noticed in another thread that Charles said something I'm noticing Microsoft is saying/showing...

"Don't count us out..."

Search
Mobile
Cloud Computing
Virtualization
Social Networking

Is it just me or did Microsoft focus so hard on the desktop that now they have to become the multiheaded blue monster just to try to keep up?

Methinks this is scary as....

Google > Microsoft @ Search
Apple UI > Microsoft UI @ Mobile
Amazon & Google > Microsoft @ Cloud Computing
VMWare > Virtual PC @ Virtualization
MySpace & Facebook > Microsoft @ Social Networking

Microsoft > Mac OSX & Linux @ Desktop

But the thing is, while Microsoft excels in that one thing, these other companies are eating everything else up. And having said that if Microsoft can't manage to raise all of those, and more while maintaining Desktop, well then...

Is Microsoft the AOL of the PC?

I don't want to count them out, but they might have to scrap $40 billion in Yahoo for $10 billion in corporate expansion. Start hiring these genius's outa school, and away from Facebook/Google.....give them free reign, 20% time, and free cafeteria....who knows what might happen.

I don't think you should be saying "Don't count us out" but instead showing us that we can't count you out.

Ray6

I think when it comes to new ideas and innovations, it's pretty safe to count them out, but that doesn't mean they're going anywhere for a while yet.

The whole multi-touch thing is a prime example of what's wrong with MS. Apple releases multi-touch on a phone; MS panics and thinks that all they have to do is implement multi-touch *somewhere* and it'll stop them from being left behind. The company is in reactionary maintenance mode, but with the command they have on the desktop, they can carry on making money that way for years to come.

I'm not a huge fan of Apple, but I'm waiting to see what comes up at the WWDC, because that's probably what will be setting Microsoft's direction for the next few years. I'm thinking that we might here some information about MacOSX 10.6, which I imagine will also support multi-touch on a new device that will be designed specifically to make the most of it. This device will sell in boatloads, create a whole new paradigm for UI developers to get their heads around and make a ton of money for Apple in battery replacements.

MS meanwhile, will throw an SDK over the wall, where it will sink without a trace ... but that won't matter, because at least they can say Windows supports multi-touch; whether anyone does anything with it won't really matter.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Ray6 wrote:

The whole multi-touch thing is a prime example of what's wrong with MS. Apple releases multi-touch on a phone;

Errr is the iPhone multitouch? I don't think so, it's just a single touch point screen.

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

Certainly a perceptive post but what else is there left in computing?

Microsoft > Everyone else@OS's
Microsoft > Everyone else@Office Suites
Microsoft > Everyone else@ Server Technologies
Microsoft > Everyone else@ General Purpose Programming Languages

I guess they are playing catch-up, not because there were slow (erm... maybe in some areas like search), but because they always thought they could buy whatever they wanted, Yahoo have proved otherwise.

Chadk
excuse me - do you has a flavor?

I can think of a few things which Microsoft is the absolute leaders in:

Word processing(Microsoft Office 2007)

Development Tools(Visual Studiop 2008 with .NET 3.5)

They are pretty equal with Ruby On Rails.

Windows Vista is the absolute best average-user system. Some people can use a Mac just fine. But they will be somewhat limited.

Best gaming platform(DirectX 10(.1))

These are the areas that matters. For now, Microsoft IS the best solution.

But I won't disagree with you that it's largely moving in the direction of Apple and google. With VMWare fusion you can use most of the tools above, on your Mac! The only problem is the gaming. Apple just haven't pushed this yet. But once they allow people to buy decent graphics cards and they find a solution(VMWare is largely cracking this issue already) to allow games to run without a probelm on the apple platform, people just WONT move!

figuerres
???

Cybermagellan wrote:
I noticed in another thread that Charles said something I'm noticing Microsoft is saying/showing...

"Don't count us out..."

Search
Mobile
Cloud Computing
Virtualization
Social Networking

Is it just me or did Microsoft focus so hard on the desktop that now they have to become the multiheaded blue monster just to try to keep up?

Methinks this is scary as....

Google > Microsoft @ Search
Apple UI > Microsoft UI @ Mobile
Amazon & Google > Microsoft @ Cloud Computing
VMWare > Virtual PC @ Virtualization
MySpace & Facebook > Microsoft @ Social Networking

Microsoft > Mac OSX & Linux @ Desktop

But the thing is, while Microsoft excels in that one thing, these other companies are eating everything else up. And having said that if Microsoft can't manage to raise all of those, and more while maintaining Desktop, well then...

Is Microsoft the AOL of the PC?

I don't want to count them out, but they might have to scrap $40 billion in Yahoo for $10 billion in corporate expansion. Start hiring these genius's outa school, and away from Facebook/Google.....give them free reign, 20% time, and free cafeteria....who knows what might happen.

I don't think you should be saying "Don't count us out" but instead showing us that we can't count you out.

half right...

I think that in search Google is the way to go, I have not had any good results with any msft search tool on the web.

mobile and the phone: Microsoft has the OS and the tools, but they do not make the hardware.... but if a hardware maker did the screen they could make an "iPhone" clone but that would not be a"New" device now.... Kudos to apple for the packaging and marketing but the rest could have been done by anyone if they had the idea and did it.

the "cloud" -- not sure, I think they all have a long way to go...

I do think that the size and complexity of all the things Microsoft is trying to cover is kind of ....

in some ways good but perhaps to much...

an old expression I used to hear:

Jack of all trades, Master of None.

Maddus Mattus
Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

It's good to be second. You can learn from the successes and the failures of the first!

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

blowdart wrote:

Ray6 wrote:

The whole multi-touch thing is a prime example of what's wrong with MS. Apple releases multi-touch on a phone;

Errr is the iPhone multitouch? I don't think so, it's just a single touch point screen.

No... it's multitouch. Seriously.

spivonious

I really think Microsoft needs to pull back and do some house cleaning. Apple is gaining serious ground in the desktop market and pretty much own the MP3 player market. Google is king of the Web and there's really not much MS can do about it.

I think if they pooled their resources and really focused on getting Windows 7 to be absolutely fantastic, IE 8 to be a Firefox-killer, and Visual Studio/MS Office to maintain their positions, they would be able to turn the public perception of the company around.

And how about some ads to compete with the Mac vs. PC ads? Apple lies so much about Vista in those ads, yet the general public takes them as truth.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

W3bbo wrote:

No... it's multitouch. Seriously.

Really? Shows how much attention I've been paying.

It also shows the difference in marketing; Microsoft say "Oh look multi-touch", Apple just shows what can be done.

Chadk
excuse me - do you has a flavor?

blowdart wrote:

W3bbo wrote:

No... it's multitouch. Seriously.

Really? Shows how much attention I've been paying.

It also shows the difference in marketing; Microsoft say "Oh look multi-touch", Apple just shows what can be done.

You aren't very technical, are you? Tongue Out

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Chadk wrote:

You aren't very technical, are you?

God damnit!

GoddersUK
I CAN has cheezburger and you CAN'T has stop me!

spivonious wrote:
pretty much own the MP3 player market

*cough*worldwide release *cough*

(listening ms?)

wkempf

Cybermagellan wrote:
Google > Microsoft @ Search

I'll give you this one.

Cybermagellan wrote:
Apple UI > Microsoft UI @ Mobile

Not sure whether to agree or not. I will say that Apple doesn't control this market, especially in the business realm. Also, whether or not Apple > Microsoft here, Apple wasn't first, so the "Johnny come lately" theory still wouldn't hold.

Cybermagellan wrote:
Amazon & Google > Microsoft @ Cloud Computing

Certainly can't agree. For one, "cloud computing" is still so much in its infancy, we can't even define what it is, much less who's providing the best services. For another, no one's really using the cloud today for anything other than storing data, and Microsoft has very strong offerings there.

Cybermagellan wrote:
VMWare > Virtual PC @ Virtualization

I *REALLY* can't agree. I have to use VMware at work, and I tell you, it's so buggy and resource intensive that I wish I could use Virtual PC. With HyperV, I'd say Microsoft is poised to take on VMware where it matters.

Cybermagellan wrote:
MySpace & Facebook > Microsoft @ Social Networking

And here, I must say, who cares? There might be some revenue to tap into there, but this isn't where I'd put any strategic business effort. YouTube would have been a more interesting market to consider here.

Cybermagellan wrote:
Microsoft > Mac OSX & Linux @ Desktop

But the thing is, while Microsoft excels in that one thing, these other companies are eating everything else up. And having said that if Microsoft can't manage to raise all of those, and more while maintaining Desktop, well then...

Is Microsoft the AOL of the PC?

I don't want to count them out, but they might have to scrap $40 billion in Yahoo for $10 billion in corporate expansion. Start hiring these genius's outa school, and away from Facebook/Google.....give them free reign, 20% time, and free cafeteria....who knows what might happen.

I don't think you should be saying "Don't count us out" but instead showing us that we can't count you out.

Google hasn't counted them out, why should you?

wkempf

Ray6 wrote:
The whole multi-touch thing is a prime example of what's wrong with MS. Apple releases multi-touch on a phone; MS panics and thinks that all they have to do is implement multi-touch *somewhere* and it'll stop them from being left behind. The company is in reactionary maintenance mode, but with the command they have on the desktop, they can carry on making money that way for years to come.

Oh man. Apple fan boi are we?

Apple didn't invent multi-touch. Neither did Microsoft, but they were in the game before Apple. Multi-touch has been an objective of Microsoft's long before the iPhone came out. You could point out that Apple was the first to release commercially, but after that your argument is meaningless.

spivonious

wkempf wrote:

Oh man. Apple fan boi are we?

Apple didn't invent multi-touch. Neither did Microsoft, but they were in the game before Apple. Multi-touch has been an objective of Microsoft's long before the iPhone came out. You could point out that Apple was the first to release commercially, but after that your argument is meaningless.

I still really don't see a home PC use for multitouch. It's great for handheld devices (e.g. iPhone) and the whole Surface thing is neat, but it seems like MS just stuck it in Windows 7 so they'd have some press-friendly feature. I really don't think Dell is going to start selling touch screens with their $399 PCs.

PerfectPhase
"This is not war, this is pest control!" - Dalek to Cyberman

spivonious wrote:

I still really don't see a home PC use for multitouch. It's great for handheld devices (e.g. iPhone) and the whole Surface thing is neat, but it seems like MS just stuck it in Windows 7 so they'd have some press-friendly feature. I really don't think Dell is going to start selling touch screens with their $399 PCs.

I think everyone gets hung up far to much on the touch part. I'm interested to know if this can be made to work with add-on camera based systems that can track hand gestures. Would love to be able to move through a photo album with a flick of the hand for example.

wkempf

spivonious wrote:

wkempf wrote:

Oh man. Apple fan boi are we?

Apple didn't invent multi-touch. Neither did Microsoft, but they were in the game before Apple. Multi-touch has been an objective of Microsoft's long before the iPhone came out. You could point out that Apple was the first to release commercially, but after that your argument is meaningless.

I still really don't see a home PC use for multitouch. It's great for handheld devices (e.g. iPhone) and the whole Surface thing is neat, but it seems like MS just stuck it in Windows 7 so they'd have some press-friendly feature. I really don't think Dell is going to start selling touch screens with their $399 PCs.

There's not a huge reason for it on the desktop. But there are LOTS of reasons for it in the OS.

* Windows OS is used in a lot of Kiosks, where this feature is obviously useful.

* Windows OS is used in a lot of POS machines and cash registers, where multi-touch might be useful (emphasis on might).

* Tablets.

* There are thousands of uses for surface computers, which is where this comes from, and there's no reason Microsoft would want to have yet another OS for those devices.

I question the use of multitouch in hyping Win7 at this point, but I don't question the strategic reason why it's in the OS.

GoddersUK
I CAN has cheezburger and you CAN'T has stop me!

wkempf wrote:
Windows OS is used in a lot of Kiosks, where this feature is obviously useful.

jamie

what i find interesting - is that this is the 3 or 4th thread asking basically - can ms ever innovate again?

it seems everyone is starting to worry win7 will be another vista.

atehrani

Word processing(Microsoft Office 2007) - I can agree this is the market leader

Development Tools (Visual Studio 2008 with .NET 3.5) - this is one of the worst IDE's I have to deal with. Despite being new, it is very outdated to some of the other IDEs (Netbeans, Eclipse, JBuilder).

They are pretty equal with Ruby On Rails. - Huh?

Windows Vista is the absolute best average-user system. Some people can use a Mac just fine. But they will be somewhat limited. - depends on your definition of "best" here. I highly disagree that Vista is the best, I would argue that XP is.

Best gaming platform(DirectX 10(.1)) - really? And how many 10.x games are out there?

Here is the key question here and this relates to the OP. Lets assume that users had freedom of choice between MS Office, OpenOffice, choice between XP/Vista/OSX/Ubuntu/OpenSolaris...etc. Meaning their files were compatabile, drivers all work...etc.

How many would choose the Microsoft product?
Are MS products choosen because they're superior and or have more value than their competitors?

I will sadly admit I do not think that would be the case.

JeremyJ
The pioneers would be appalled!

atehrani wrote:
Development Tools (Visual Studio 2008 with .NET 3.5) - this is one of the worst IDE's I have to deal with. Despite being new, it is very outdated to some of the other IDEs (Netbeans, Eclipse, JBuilder).

After this statement I just stopped reading what you wrote because Visual Studio is the best IDE I have ever used (and I have use a lot). Development tool IDEs don't need to be flashy... they just need to get the job done easily and efficently. If a flashy UI is your main criteria then your priorities are way off the mark.

Charles
Welcome Change

In the specific case of my comment, a thread was started proclaiming that Google's new mobile phone OS is very interesting and Microsoft's offering (which runs millions of phones today) sucks. Further, it was stated that our unreleased version also sucks...

It's hard for me to understand why it is that we are seen as non-innovative. Perhaps those of you who feel this way never watch any of our videos (after all, yours truly spends a great deal of time hunting down and showcasing innovative technologies and the people who create them - perhaps I've failed in this endeavor over the years...)?

Vista, like it or not, is full of innovation, much of which runs in a context that you don't experience (fine, I can see how you can't see this) but certainly there are user mode constructs (like desktop search for one obvious example) that are right in front of you, in your face (and perhaps too much so with the way indexing can cause disk churn, but that's much improved in SP1).

At any rate, I think it's unfair and further unreasonable to declare Microsoft as non-innovative. Is the Parallel Computing Platform innovative? F#? CLR? CCR? .NET Platform? Windows Server 2008? Live Mesh? LINQ? PLINQ? Office 2007? Windows Vista? IE8? Silverlight 2 (cross-platform CLR, rich media experience and dev platform)? WPF? WCF? VS 2008? VC++ 2008? VB.NET 2008? Volta? And on and on........

I don't get what we have to do to prove that we can innovate. We do innovate. In fact, it's what we do best. Where we need work I guess is in how we package and hype our innovations such that it's readily obvious to you that we have, in fact, innovated.

Perception is reality.

C

Ray6

wkempf wrote:

Ray6 wrote: The whole multi-touch thing is a prime example of what's wrong with MS. Apple releases multi-touch on a phone; MS panics and thinks that all they have to do is implement multi-touch *somewhere* and it'll stop them from being left behind. The company is in reactionary maintenance mode, but with the command they have on the desktop, they can carry on making money that way for years to come.

Oh man. Apple fan boi are we?

You don't hang around here much do you?

wkempf wrote:

Apple didn't invent multi-touch. Neither did Microsoft, but they were in the game before Apple. Multi-touch has been an objective of Microsoft's long before the iPhone came out. You could point out that Apple was the first to release commercially, but after that your argument is meaningless.

... and hard of reading too. Tragic combination. Let's have a look again at what I actually said.

'Apple releases multitouch on a phone'

See that? Where did I say that Apple invented it? In fact, Samsung was already demonstrating their own multitouch device a few weeks before Apple announced the iPhone.

Apple actually invents very little. There strength is in their brand, their focus and their superb marketing, all of which sits nicely with their ability to put a human face on technology and then sell it to the consumer.

What they have is focus. They know where they're going and they know how they want to get there. Contrast this with the MS strategy of just throwing everything at the wall and praying that something will stick.

But hey if you're an Apple-hater then go for it, but that doesn't actually alter the truth. They're doing bloody well and it's not a happy accident.

littleguru
<3 Seattle

I find this discussion so ridiculous...

People don't think that Microsoft is innovative and on the other hand I'm sooooo 100% sure they don't even know what and where Microsoft really innovates!

When researching for my master thesis I jumped over Microsoft researchers and tools all the time... like for example the real-time face dector (the first and only one so far being real-time) that was created by Viola and Jones where Paul Viola works at Microsoft.

People starting this kind of threads only demonstrate that they have no clue Expressionless