When will Microsoft ship a WPF product? | The Coffeehouse

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

WPF has been out ages now and I'm still stuck with 100% Winforms applications on Vista. Windows Live mail and Windows mail appear to me to be WPF, mainly because of the Vista Tree View and listview controls, but they are half baked products. For me, the best WPF application is the Zurich airport one, which surely is a blueprint for all aviation. The Lawson Mango one got a lot of press, but that's just one photo. I've not been able to sink my teeth into it with a demo or anything, notwithstanding Vertigo or thirteen23 contributions.

Niner's get 'ants in their pants' about Windows 7, why not WPF? All the new versions released by Microsoft, be they Messenger or any of the live products seem stuck in the past, with no-one wanting to take a gamble on WPF.

Why is this?

Cyonix
Me

Expression Blend is WPF Smiley

However also want to see microsoft developing more applications with WPF. I guess it's just hard for them to throw away a working application and start over simply because there is a new technology.

yman

I believe the applications used in Microsoft Surface are all WPF.

Dovella
Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

In reply to yman

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 1:42 AM

and windows 7 Big Smile

+seadragon??? Big Smile

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to Dovella

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 1:52 AM

I have a version of windows called Vista that is meant to be the platform for WPF.

This is one of the main reasons for moving over from XP (the WOW starts now? Erm... not really. You have to wait 4 more years for seadragon).

Are you telling me that I am going to have to wait till the next version of Windows until I actually get a WPF application that justifies the upgrade? If that is the case, then Vista will eternally be deemed a failure, because apart from UAC and some new fonts, I may as well be using XP.

It's almost like buying a playstation and not having any games to buy and play on it. I don't want to know about the next version, I want to know about this version I have today! The one that I paid through the teeth for.

littleguru
<3 Seattle

Microsoft is writing new applications on their new technologies. But you can't have them to move all the current apps in the trash and create them from scratch just for the sake of using WPF. WPF will come but it might take them a little longer until you are going to see it.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:07 AM

That's quite the oversimplification. Vista is a bit more than XP + Fonts + UAC + WPF.

littleguru
<3 Seattle

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:25 AM

Actually it's not a new fonts dialog Big Smile

haha

I love the "only what I see is there" approach of some people... these are then usually the one who want a new Windows kernel for 7 Wink

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:25 AM

Would you care to digress?

I would like answers to this.

You have an estate agents (real estate) office with 10 computers running XP. The applications the site use are Office and a small winforms application to keep track of sales, free houses etc linked to a SQL 2000 database.

Why would they need to upgrade their system, seeing as they have an company that looks after their network, and in truth they have very few problems? Yes they are still stuck on Office 2003, but the upgrade to 2007 seems an unnecessary expense, especially, when you look at retraining costs for all the staff. I'm specifically talking return on investment (ROI) here.

Would you please justify why my statement is an oversimplification, and the plethora of features they are missing out on in XP that are in Vista? I'm talking from a purely business perspective.

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to littleguru

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:24 AM

I agree entirely with you, code re-use is very important. what exactly are these new applications, and when are they going to be ready? Don't get me wrong I love this new technology, but I am at the stage where I have to justify my decisions. If you are spending £1000 on a personal computer, that is a personal decision. If that budget inflates to £50 000 and support maintenance costs, it's a completely different picture.

The key word in all my posts is justify. I need justification for the decision and this must offer me some intrinsic value

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to littleguru

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:28 AM

Vista SPI now has the same kernel as Windows server 2008, that is great. It has been tested to extreme levels. what benefits does this have an an XP machine, in an office connecting to a server to perform CRUD and general Microsoft Office tasks? What benefit is it to my mum who uses Vista exactly the same as XP? I'm a mechanical engineer, so please don't get into what I see and it not being there.

If I have a bridge that is stable and works, am I to take it down and create another, just so it looks like the Millau? I need justification in your argument please, and well reasoned one at that. I know full well the improvements made, but you sometimes need to balance cost with value.

Dovella
Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:07 AM

if you wont see Application in WPF,
Micrsosoft Kills Windows XP,

this is a question!!

and with windows 7 microsoft kill XP
and Live Vista and 7 with new application

littleguru
<3 Seattle

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:53 AM

Well, the newer applications from Microsoft build upon WPF: Expression Blend, Expression Encoder, etc. These are completely build in WPF. Also, it is most likely to see more of these applications to come in the future, but as said it might take time and I don't know much about the inner plannings of Microsoft.

Dovella
Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:25 AM

and bitlocker? Security? Shadow copy? aero fashion , autodefrag, index , sidebar, new best control pannel??

littleguru
<3 Seattle

In reply to Dovella

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:06 AM

Dovella, perchè non leggi ancora una volta i tuoi post prima di cliccare su "Add"... è veramente complicato di capire cosa ci vuoi dire!
---
Dovella, why are you not reading your posts before clicking on "Add"... it's very complicated to understand what you want to say to us.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 2:46 AM

That's a nice trap you're trying to set up. You're asking for two different things. You're asking me to digress on why there's more to Vista than XP + UAC + Fonts + WPF, and then right after that you're asking me why business users need Vista. Since you're only just bringing up a specific business example, I don't see why you're entitled to an answer from a business perspective from me.

So I'll return to the original question: would I care to digress on why Vista is more than XP + UAC + Fonts + WPF? Sure. Here's a bunch of features new to Vista:

Improved memory and heap manager
New process & IO scheduler
New Audio stack
Kernel Transaction Manager
New Multimedia class scheduler
XPS print path
Mandatory Integrity Control
New driver model
Overhauled and extended event logging
Transactional NTFS
Bitlocker
Windows Imaging Component
Improved power management
Firewall with inbound and outbound filtering
System Restore now based on Shadow Copy
Offline Files that actually works
Improved cryptography API
Previous Version
Fully integrated search, including search folders et al
Kernel Patch Protection
New networking stack including native IPv6 and redesigned v4
Fully integrated speech recognition (including support for microphone arrays)
Protected Mode IE7

Of course, that's just a small subset. There's lots of information to be found online about all the features new to Vista. They're easy to find.

And naturally this list will be picked apart as "insignificant", "not of interest to business users", or simply "I don't need any of that." But that's not what you asked. What you asked for was elaboration on why Vista is more than just UAC, WPF, and a bunch of fonts.

Dovella
Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

In reply to littleguru

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:09 AM

excuse me

i quote 100% Bas

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:10 AM

Don't be so cynical Bas. I never knowingly set traps in debate. I like brains that's all. Ultimately, whether you believe it or not, this is a business decision by Microsoft. It may not be geared toward business, but the justifications are pure business sense.

I would rip the list proffered to shreds, if I was to have a go at it from a business justification perspective - using Microsoft's argument of not ripping XP up just because something new has come along. This also is a reply to Dovella, because your typical business user has no need at all for the stuff he has listed. Yes they are nice to have, but they certainly are not necessaries.

I see Vista pretty much like Visual studio 2005. It was a long engineering project, that laid a very solid foundation for VS 2008. Vista will do the same for windows 7, but WPF applications are not developable quicker or faster or cheaper (it's the other way around) then previous technologies, if anything.

Vista is pure C/C++ with a layer that allows .NET and WPF to sit on top. It's not possible to do this for Office 2007 or any of the current legacy applications. Computers are going to be around a long time, and I can't see Office 2007 being continually polished in C/C++ for the next 20 years. At some point, these legacy applications are going to start to show their age (if they are not doing so already) so something must change. If you keep churning out the argument, you can't just throw Messenger away, you're leaving yourself stuck in the past, and competitors are going to come along and trounce you.

PerfectPhase
"This is not war, this is pest control!" - Dalek to Cyberman

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:33 AM

You can use VSTO+WPF to write addins for office, thats a first step.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:33 AM

I'm not saying I disagree with you on wether or not business users care about all that stuff, but my point was that there's more to Vista than the simplification you made of it. Wether or not business users are interested in that is another matter entirely, and not what you asked me.

And yeah, I shouldn't have suggested that you were laying a trap. You were asking for one thing and then dismissing another, but I didn't know if you did that intentionally.

TommyCarlier
I want my scalps!

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:33 AM

I think vesuvius has some good points. WPF is cool and all, but it lacks maturity in some areas. I think Windows Forms is still the best option for a lot of applications, even new ones. I've decided to stay with Windows Forms (and .NET 2.0) for a while. I'm learning about the new features of .NET 3.0/3.5 and I'm experimenting with the new technologies, but (at work and for hobby projects) I'm sticking with .NET 2.0. A lot of people have a problem with installing .NET, we even sometimes have trouble explaining to people why they have to install .NET 2.0. We even have people running our apps on Windows 2000 (we still try to keep our apps compatible with Windows 2000) and had to disappoint some people who still run Windows 98!

Windows Forms is a mature platform. It's far from perfect, but if you have a lot of experience with WinForms (and Win32), you can produce fast, stable and even beautiful applications. Last week we demonstrated our Transceiver Communicator application to a couple of lawyers in Brussels and I was very happy with the look on their face: they were impressed with the beautiful and simple UI.

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to PerfectPhase

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:52 AM

It's also possible to do this in bog standard Winforms with the Element Host control. The question is why Microsoft are not doing this themselves?

PS, apologies for the typos, I type too quick, and don't check spelling mistakes, and I can't be bothered to go correct everything. Very bad and lazy of me!

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to vesuvius

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 4:02 AM

One more reason why system-wide WPF textboxes with integrated spellcheckers would come in handy. Tongue Out

kitron

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 3:10 AM

Can you please let me know how any of these features are going to get anyone excited about this platform(excited being the key word here). Let me tell you this, out of the 4 people I know that got new computers in the last 6 months only one got a windows pc(me). WPF was built to WOW people and so far it hasn't.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to kitron

#Jun 7th, 2008 @ 8:57 AM

No.