I would love to work at MS, but... | The Coffeehouse

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

I've got no idea what I could do there. I've got 10+ years experience with Photoshop, but I don't consider myself a designer, and don't want to design graphics for a living. I've got 5 or so years of solid PHP programming on top of MySQL, but does Microsoft even care? I've got almost two years of C# development, but don't code in it actively so I'm incredibly pathetic at it I'm sure. I'm standards-abiding when it comes to XHTML and CSS, but again, does that matter? I'm proficient in Javascript, but don't they have their own browser-script anyway? I've got plenty of presentation skill, if you ask me Wink

Am I useless to Microsoft? Where on Earth would an infidel like myself fit in amongst the badges there in Redmond? Perhaps one of those fancy camera jobs where you just go around and talk about technology - I think I could do that.

Anyway, softies, you would know better than I if my experience would give me any placement in Redmond.

figuerres
???

Wow.... do not be so down on your self.

sounds like you do have some good basic skills.

you know how to code, you kow how to use tools.

you know .net, html, css, javascript, c# and other stuff.

i'd say ask yourself what you would wast to do if you could at MSFT or anywhere.
then ask what MSFT is looking for.
they do have a web site that lists openings and let's you submit a res.

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

"but don't they have their own browser-script anyway?"

I wouldn't hire you (if I were hiring anyway) with quote like this. Javascript is goddess of browser languages. VBScript or any other scripting language are not browser/platform indepenent - there is only one browser scripting language and even MS has to respect this rule.

Anyhow, I don't know if MS is hiring people that know only web development (but I might be wrong - see Live team) - I think there's prejudice about devs that know only how to create web pages - technologies used in web development are all really high level (every mortal can do LAMP) and so people think you can't do lowlevel.

So learn a book or two on C++ and things that normally come with. Knowing how popular operating systems work inside might help too.

matthews

Microsoft is a really big company. They're looking for more than just coders and designers.

Dan

I would start with figuring out what it is you want to do and what you're good at, then look to see if Microsoft has any good jobs that are a match for your skills, experience, and interest.

As a side note, we just published Part 1 of a multipart series on Getting Hired @ Microsoft, where you'll hear about every step in the recruitment process from writin writing a killer resume to technical interviews to your first couple of days at Microsoft.

jason818_253.33
Yippi skippy

I hate to do your job for you but here is a search for the Florida area. Smiley

They also have job openings around the world. How does this one sound? Sound like you? Smiley

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to RoyalSchrubber

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 10:38 AM

I was referring to jscript. And what about my vague speculation would cause you to reject me - just out of curiosity? Simply because Microsoft is a massive company, and I'm likely ignorant about some of their technologies - especially some that get little-to-no mention?

littleguru
<3 Seattle

Hmm... it's not that you fill in a certain steretype to get a job at Microsoft. And it's also that you usually do a lot of stuff at Microsoft. From design, to writing specs, to coding... I did everything during my internship so far.

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

In reply to jonathansampson

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 4:59 PM

jscript is as worthless as is vbscript even though it's very similar to javascript.

The way you put it looked like you don't know the fact that there is only one acceptable browser scripting language (ECMAScript/javascript) - any jscript extensions can only be used internally at best. Declaring that your only area of expertise is web development I'd imagine you're clueless. I know I'm nitpicking (I'm sorry Smiley

), but it's important to talk precise when you talk about stuff you're supposed to know - on a job interview don't say you don't know jscript if you know javascript. Wink

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

In reply to jonathansampson

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 4:59 PM

It would seem to me that you should start by thinking very hard what type of job you'd enjoy - are you going to prefer making marketing stuff with photoshop, or making website layouts or coding the behind-the-scenes javascript for webpages, or the C# that sits behind that?

Rather than thinking "Microsoft is so huge, I'll never be able to fit in", you should think "Microsoft is so huge, that there's a 99% chance that what I want to do is encompassed by some part of Microsoft". It's not that Microsoft is so huge that you can't fit in - it's that it's so huge that there's lots of room for you to fit in.

With regards to whether Microsoft cares that you have PHP - they (to my knowledge) don't have any PHP positions, but they _do_ have lots of PHP programmers - that is to say programmers who can, or even actively do program in PHP. By having a basis in PHP you are saying to Microsoft that you are a programmer who _can_ program in PHP, and this tells them that you can program in languages like PHP, and think through problems simmilar to those that you encounter on a day-to-day basis with PHP, and it's that more than the PHP that is important to Microsoft.

With regards to whether Microsoft cares that you can code in a standards compliant way - they probably don't massively care so long as it works (for proof, right click, view-source), but that doesn't mean it's not worth anything to Microsoft. by saying you conform to the standards means that you're the type of person who would conform to standards - you're not the type of person to use cheap short-term hacks in order to get round a problem and leave the mess for the future.

Supposing you were coming to me for an interview and you came into my office and you said the things you said in the first paragraph, I would have my doubts about you - not because you're a weak candidate, but because you don't seem to believe in yourself, and you're starting with the assumption that you won't fit in. If you challenge these assumptions and say to yourself, "hell - I have YEARS of programming experience, hell I can code AND I can design, and there's not many people who can do both. More than that, I'm basically cheating on my interview by watching C9 videos, because I can regurgitate them in an interview and sound incredibly smart about various bits of Microsoft, how could they not hire me", then chances are you'll find it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to RoyalSchrubber

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 5:33 PM

I'm fully aware that Javascript is king, but MS doesn't always recognize another King is my point.

mVPstar
I'm white because I smelt an onion.

In reply to jonathansampson

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 6:01 PM

I don't think it really matters that you're not completely experienced in their technologies. You know how to program and you have a good grasp of presentation. If MS wanted you to use a specific tech, I'm sure they'll teach you. For example, I'm trying to apply to an MS internship for freshman, and one of the things they do in that program is teach you C#.

If you can demonstrate that you're passionate and know how to work on a team, then you have as good of a chance as anyone else of getting hired. Besides, it also depends on what type of role you hope to be...PM, tester, coder, ux, etc.

But then, I believe that they assign you to a team that's more suited to your skills.

tfraser

In reply to mVPstar

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 6:18 PM

That's just what I was thinking.

From what I've heard most companies with some software business will teach you anything you don't already know providing they believe that you have the potential and you aren't starting from scratch. Obviously you can't expect to be given a job that involves programming if you've never even touched a programming language before, but they have some degree of leniency.

Last time I checked, Apple doesn't require new employees to have ever used a Mac before and I would imagine that Microsoft has a similar attitude.

joechung

Are you a fast learner? Are you a good problem solver?

Relevant technologies and programming skills are important to any SDE position you would be filling at Microsoft, but the two questions above are key to whether or not you would fit in at Microsoft in general, at least for SDE's. Keep in mind that there are other positions such as Program Manager that do not require as much in-depth technical know-how -- though it helps tremendously, of course -- as long as you're OK with doing something besides programming as your day-to-day work activities.

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

In reply to joechung

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 7:24 PM

joechung said:
Keep in mind that there are other positions such as Program Manager that do not require as much in-depth technical know-how

I think there's one or two PMs who might disagree strongly with that statement. As a program manager you'd be expected to be intimately aware of all aspects of the program, and would undoubtably be expected to have a significant supervisory role for all of the members of the team. It might be fashionable to use the Dilbert image of "the boss", or to assume that all of management are incompetent and useless, but my guess is that most PMs are just as technical, if not more than the people in their team.

rjdohnert
You will never know success until you know failure

In reply to evildictaitor

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 9:34 PM

I would love to work for Microsoft in their Open Source labs. I did apply for the OS Community Manager position but not quite sure what happened with that. Anyhow, a bunch of tech companies hire for various positions and then promote from within. Whatever company you do go work for just make sure that whatever training course they offer you go. It not only shows you have initiative but its free training. If you get on with a company not quite in the position you want, ask people who work in that department questions when you have free time. if they are any kind of professional they wont mind humoring your questions. I talk to the iOS team and the Windows teams on a regular basis at work. Stay away from office politics since you are a newbie and dont listen to the gossip. I swear, if I got laid from the ladies at work as much as people think I do, I would be the man.

Dont be afraid to start from the bottom up. Even if Microsoft hired you as a janitor, you are in. Thats the hardest part. The easy part is climbing the ladder.

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

In reply to rjdohnert

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 9:55 PM

Apart from the fact that janitors are sub-contracted. But apart from that, yeah. Tongue Out

HumanCompiler
Compiling humans...and code

In reply to evildictaitor

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 9:34 PM

PMs aren't necessarily smarter than SDEs. If they are, it's not because of their position. The difference betwen PMs and SDEs is the type of knowledge they have. Breadth (PM) vs. Depth (SDE).

Re: Your previous "view source" comment...did you ever view the source of the old Channel 9 site? We're 100 times better (even if there's more of it now) than we were before. It's not perfect, but stop being so dramatic about it. Tongue Out

Ion Todirel
buuu

In reply to HumanCompiler

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 3:07 AM

yeah, DFT (SDE) vs. BFT (PM) let the "deep" be with SDE's Smiley

to J: being one of the guys who had recently a Microsoft interview, I can say that really the technologies, tools and languages you know/familiar with is not as important as you think, way more important is problem solving skills (and your English Wink

) and the way you approach problems, besides I would suggest you to give it a try, otherwise you'll never know...

P.S. hey! why is your C9 username inverted (in reply quote thingie)? can I have that too? Tongue Out

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

In reply to HumanCompiler

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 3:07 AM

Fire linux & firefox once or twice and see what horrible mess C9 is.. (I have problems on openuse 11 x86 - didn't report anything because I believe you are already aware of the bugs)

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

In reply to jonathansampson

#Sep 24th, 2008 @ 6:01 PM

That was '98 Microsoft, even though they probably aren't any better now they at least silently admit there are 'others' and most MS sites are nowadays accessible from other systems/browsers. Heck they even developed mozilla and safari plugin for silverlight.

"but MS doesn't always recognize another King is my point." - I think that was not your point originally: "I'm proficient in Javascript, but don't they have their own browser-script anyway?" sounded to me more like "I have to read multi-hundred pages long text even though I'm already proficient in javascript". again nitpicking Tongue Out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript#Differences_from_JavaScript

matthews

In reply to RoyalSchrubber

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 6:11 AM

Yeah, I was going to say "aren't jscript and javascript basically the exact same thing?"

Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

In reply to matthews

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 7:17 AM

JScript is Microsoft's implementation of the EcmaScript standard. Javascript is the Netscape/Mozilla implementation of that same standard.

You're more likely to find features in Javascript that not in JScript (because JScript is based on a fairly old version of the standard) than the other way around.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

In reply to Sven Groot

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 7:26 AM

On top of that isn't it like an order of magnitude slower then Mozilla's implementation? Do you think Microsoft will actually do anything about these issues?

Yggdrasil
Pour me a cab, 'cause I can't drink no more.

In reply to Bass

#Sep 25th, 2008 @ 7:42 AM

Order of magnitude slower?

IE 7 has their much maligned "orders of magnitude slower" engine. Chrome has their shiny new V8. Firefox have made a big deal of their own javascript implementation in the past. Everyone is happy to point at IE's implementation and laugh.

I browse sites - Channel 9, MSDN, Facebook, Gmail. Many of these sites rely on client script for a lot of their functionality. They are not noticeably slower in IE than they are in other browsers. The runtime of a block of javascript in gmail is negligable compared to the type it takes to bring data over the wire. The time it takes to flip to a new photo album in Facebook is 99% network and 1% javascript.

I haven't looked into the popular benchmarks to see what they're trying to emulate, but out in the wild, IE's script performance is totally equivalent to other engines.