Successful Discussion?. | The Coffeehouse

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

What is the formula for a successful discussion? I mean, all of us are getting a little frustrated talking to eachother because we have different political/religious views. Come from different worlds practically, and have vastly different backgrounds. How are we suppose to successfully communicate with each other?

For example, there was a lot of controversy over whether or not a watermelon was "racist." One or two Niners suggested it was, and a couple niners (including myself) suggested that it couldn't be. I asked for an explanation as to why a watermelon is "racist" (meaning, it promotes one race as superior to another), but no explanation was given because in the mind of the affirming Niner, it was clearly racist and didn't merit explanation.

So in conversations like that, we find ourself in an endless loop of, "It's not racist. Yes it is, and you're racist for defending it. How am I racist!? Because you defend racist remarks. But why is it racist? Because it is!"

We're all engineers here, and think pretty well about operation flow and how things should be done to ensure successful results, so why is it we have such a difficult time communicating with other technical thinkers?

Oh, and I'm serious, anybody got a suggestion for a successful discussion formula? The world could really use it Wink

My opinion is this. We should all strive to adhere to logic, since it's demonstrated pretty conclusively over the years its own success when properly used. Secondly, we shouldn't slack in explaining our positions as thoroughly as needed when it's possible to do so. Third, pride and arrogance have got to take back-stage in conversations. Any thoughts?

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

From where does the notion that "watermelon" refers to a derogatory remark ultimately derive? I've never heard it used as a racist term before. How is "watermelon" more racist than "apple" or "beef steak"?

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to evildictaitor

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 7:27 AM

Because "Black people like Watermelon"? I dunno. This is what I don't get. Americans like McDonald's, Programmers like Coffee, and I like Pizza - I don't get what the problem is. I feel that it's clearly an issue of stereotyping, and not one of racism. But this is where my problem is, those who suggest it is racist haven't explained WHY it's racist, and I feel that destroys the discussion.

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

In reply to evildictaitor

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 7:27 AM

Black people supposedly like chicken and watermelon more that others. Heard it on stand up shows, dunno where this came from, seems to me completely random.

this guy rocks btw. Smiley

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 7:44 AM

jonathansampson wrote:
What is the formula for a successful discussion?

When everyone agrees with me.

jonathansampson wrote:
"Black people like Watermelon"? ... WHY it's racist

Honestly, if this is the answer you're looking for, you're not going to find it on an forum. Go outside to real life, maybe, just maybe, you'll find it out there.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:21 AM

See, you're doing it again. If you understand why it's racist, WHY WON'T YOU JUST EXPLAIN IT!?

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:25 AM

jonathansampson wrote:
See, you're doing it again. If you understand why it's racist, WHY WON'T YOU JUST EXPLAIN IT!?

Racist acts come from the reptilian part of our brain. Maybe you haven't experienced it. Maybe you're just too young. No amount of text written by anyone on this forum will make you understand. Because your higher brain is rationalizing everything away before it goes to where it needs to go.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:30 AM

I'm not asking where racist acts originate, what I'm asking is how you declare "Obama's flag has a watermelon on it" to be racist. What qualifies it as "racist".

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:21 AM

It seems to me that the term "watermelon" is used as a derogatory remark near where Minh lives, but everywhere else it's a fruit. Now that's sorted, let's move on to a different discussion. I've certainly never heard it used as a term of abuse before, but given that I don't like watermelon, I can see that eating watermelon might be some kind of punishment.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to evildictaitor

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:34 AM

ED, That doesn't address the issue of "is it racist" or not. It may very well be derogatory, but that doesn't mean it's racist. I can call somebody fat and ugly, but that isn't a racist comment either.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:33 AM

jonathansampson wrote:
I'm not asking where racist acts originate, what I'm asking is how you declare "Obama's flag has a watermelon on it" to be racist. What qualifies it as "racist".

I feel that you are either unable or unwilling to understand the answer. Because it has been said before. And you act like you still don't understand the symbolism.

Yggdrasil
Pour me a cab, 'cause I can't drink no more.

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:25 AM

Disclaimer: I am not an expert in American race relations. I am not even American. This is just my take on the matter.

Why does the watermelon trigger emotional reactions? Because you can't just take it in isolation. You can't even take the statement "Southern Black people like watermelons" in isolation. It doesn't even matter if it's true, for certain communities of black people. You have to look at the whole matter of stereotyping a racial group with common mannerisms and behaviors in the context of hundreds of years of discrimination, of racist discourse and its resultant social meanings. Take the 'n' word, for instance. By itself, why is it offensive? All it does is refer to a black person. But when you use it, you're not just calling someone black - you're evoking all the social and cultural connotations it carries, and they are the offensive ones.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to evildictaitor

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:34 AM

evildictator wrote:
It seems to me that the term "watermelon" is used as a derogatory remark near where Minh lives, but everywhere else it's a fruit. Now that's sorted, let's move on to a different discussion. I've certainly never heard it used as a term of abuse before, but given that I don't like watermelon, I can see that eating watermelon might be some kind of punishment.

The context of that graphics was raymond put it up. raymond is from Texas, and know full well the meaning of associating a watermelon to an African American. And there's no doubt that is a racist symbol.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Yggdrasil

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:38 AM

I've already stated that a watermelon may indeed be rude, and is definitely stereotypical, but that isn't the same thing as "it's racist." That is my whole point. We are misapplying the term "racist." That's all I'm trying to say. Minh disagrees strongly, but feels the wisdom he has isn't shared through communication apparently, since he refuses to educate me as to why it's "racism" and not merely "stereotyping."

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:40 AM

You can make the argument that Raymond is Racist, but there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in his post(s) that was "racism". Only stereotyping, and your ignorance of the difference is stunning to say the least. Please, Minh, for your own benefit, attempt to reason which why it's acceptable to misapply terms to make your point?

Nobody is saying Raymond is nice, or sweet in any way. I think the watermelon is rude, and stereotypical, but it's not "racism".

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:36 AM

I'm inclined to agree. There's no point to explaining racial slurs because in isolation they don't mean anything. If you don't understand that, you're either looking for a fight, unwilling to understand, too young to understand, or just too plain stupid.

Meanwhile Yggdrasil does a pretty good job. No doubt will it get a reply along the lines of "But it's just a fruit!" or some skewed comparison with something related to caucasians, followed by "See, that isn't offensive either" or some rationalisation like that.

Edit: and now we're all going to have a nice back and forth shouting match about the definition of the word 'racism' that is closest to our own point of view.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:41 AM

I'm starting to understand more about your character.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Bas

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:43 AM

Okay, perhaps I'm failing in communication. Racism is an act that intends to demonstrate the superiority of one race over another. How do stereotypes do this? Sure, they're rude, mean, and could even be hateful, but that doesn't mean they demonstrate racial inferiority of the person they are targeted toward.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:43 AM

jonathansampson wrote:
Nobody is saying Raymond is nice, or sweet in any way. I think the watermelon is rude, and stereotypical, but it's not "racism".

And you would be wrong.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:47 AM

And here's your opportunity to demonstrate WHY. I already argued my case that the flag didn't show racial inferiority in any way. It was merely stereotyping - you have made no advances what-so-ever to argue your conviction. Why not?

You are contributing to the failure of discussion here, my main issue covered in the first post. When a user advances an opinion, but refuses to substantiate it, they ruin all discussion. Please, benefit the talk, or quietly leave the thread.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:49 AM

argue? case? Sir, I would like to posit the argument for my conjecture that watermelons arent... LOL

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Minh

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:51 AM

Whatever, this is a waste. It's like arguing with a brick.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:52 AM

Who's arguing?

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to jonathansampson

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:46 AM

Okay, perhaps I'm failing in communication. Racism is an act that intends to demonstrate the superiority of one race over another. How do stereotypes do this? Sure, they're rude, mean, and could even be hateful, but that doesn't mean they demonstrate racial inferiority of the person they are targeted toward.

And of course being rude, mean and hateful is perfectly fine.

jonathansampson
stick a scissor in you eye!

In reply to Bas

#Oct 11th, 2008 @ 8:55 AM

I'm not suggesting that, Bas. But what I am suggesting is that just because something is rude, doesn't mean it's racist. Just because something is mean, doesn't mean it's racist. And just because something is hateful, doesn't mean it's racist. That's my point.