The value of a CS degree | The Coffeehouse

dpratt71

I ran into this post recently, which prompted me to post this. Channel 9 seems to have a fairly diverse audience -- well, besides the fact that we're all geeks -- so I'd like to ask: To what degree (pun intended) is a CS degree worthwhile?

alwaysmc2
It's not stupid; It's advanced!

I'm getting education (freshman at Virginia Tech) AND experiance (at work right now D-: ).

Oh man, I learned so much about C++ today.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

I think a CS degree is very valuable. Of course I'm sure you'll find people to argue the opposite. It's really not the value of the paper but it's really the experience. But yeah I would also say it helps a little with the job finding aspect, a lot of places only hire graduates, and some only hire CS graduates. So take it as you will. It's not easy to get a college degree either, let alone a CS degree. It's 4 years of sometime very difficult coursework.

evildictaitor
if( !succeed( try() ) ) { while(true) try(); }

Someone with a degree in CS needs to have demonstrated that he/she has programmed outside of just his/her college studies to get my attention - that said, someone with just hobby projects and no formal experience is likely to have a very narrow understanding of design process and other coding styles.

Another important thing of a CS degree is that it teaches you the limitations of computer science - there are lots of things computers can't do, no matter how cleverly you try and make it.

ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

In reply to evildictaitor

#Jan 2nd @ 11:34 AM

Do I think you need a degree if you can already do the job? No...
Do I think other people (inc. Your bosses) overvalue a degree? Yes...
Do I think a degree is worth while? Yes... Because other people overvalue them...

Ultimately a degree is valuable in what you learn but 90% of its value comes from a piece of paper that a lot of people respect. Similarly to going to a "brand" University (e.g. Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, etc) they might not provide you with a better education but just by the respect people give them they have power.

That is just the world we live in. Businesses and the people behind them have to cover their own asses and a Collage/University is a great scapegoat if someone turns out to be terrible. "How was I meant to know they couldn't code? They had a degree from X!"

If you want to go and study to actually learn something then I congratulate you and the many thousands of unemployed art/drama students that went before you...

dpratt71

In reply to ManipUni

#Jan 2nd @ 11:57 AM

That's pretty much my perspective, Manip.

Is anyone willing to out themselves as a working professional without a degree? I don't have one.

Of the people I work with, I'm not aware of anyone else who does not have a degree. What do we think is the percentage of people working in this industry who don't have a degree?

leeappdalecom
.nettter

In reply to dpratt71

#Jan 2nd @ 12:22 PM

I've been working for 10 years in the industry without a degree and have worked for many large companies and not once has not having a degree been a problem.

I'm currently doing a part time degree for personal gain really and I haven't learned anything yet that would be valuable in a commercial environment. I think wanting to learn, having common sense and ambition will get you on in life far more than a university education.

At 25 I had started my own company and working as a consultant earning a very good wage through sheer determination. Am I the cleverest person out there? No not even close my maths is terrible but I know how to develop and I get projects developed successfully and guess what that's what companies want, good value, hard working people that get the job done.

How did I get into IT without a degree, well I started from the very bottom, I learnt my worth at each level of my career the more projects I completed, the more knowledge I gained the more I was worth simple as that.

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

In reply to leeappdalecom

#Jan 2nd @ 12:38 PM

I suppose when you're contracting or consulting you sell your company to the client, rather than the people that make it up (even if it's only one or two people), and that's where past success is more important.

leeappdalecom
.nettter

In reply to W3bbo

#Jan 2nd @ 12:47 PM

True but when I was working permanent for companies I didn't find not having a degree an issue as my past experience and subject knowledge was sufficient.

I suppose there is no right or wrong way and id rather have a degree than not but it's only a small part of the overall package.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

In reply to leeappdalecom

#Jan 2nd @ 1:05 PM

Well I think one value of the degree is you don't have to start at the very bottom. Especially graduating from a place like MIT and Stanford, you have no problems finding a job paying $130,000+ with no experience. Really from any old CS school you'll make at least $55-60k. Microsoft and Google used to hire college grads directly (apparently not anymore due to economy), and six figure salaries are not unheard of. But really the higher level your education the more they often pay. MSCS is worth more then BSCS, PHD is worth the most. Smiley

You can work your way up to a salary like this without a degree. Some places though, specifically list a requirement as a CS degree. It's possible to get around that I guess, but usually they mean it. You risk having HR throwing your Resume away in seconds. My girlfriend used to work in recruiting, that's basically what they did (and surprisingly a A LOT of computer people lack CS degrees, so it's a really easy way to narrow down applicants).

The other option is to start your own company, but with all these big corporations around, it takes a lot of effort to be competitive, I think.

dpratt71

In reply to Bass

#Jan 2nd @ 1:16 PM

I know of at least one instance where I was explicitly not considered for a position on the basis of not having a degree. Any knowledge or experience or other credentials I could claim were not considered relevant. As well, I'm sure that there have been other cases where not having a degree was the reason I was not given serious consideration.

On the flip side, I really can't complain. The company I work for is fantastic, the pay is reasonable considering the local economics, and I feel that I get more respect I deserve from the people that I work with.

As I found out first-hand recently, finding qualified people is hard, regardless of claimed credentials. If a company has a process where they can find good talent, regardless of whether that talent comes with a degree, that may be a significant competitive advantage over another company that will not consider non-degreed candidates.

zian
Exploding heads since 1988

For me, taking college classes provides a great springboard towards being able to understand things. It's like learning how to build all sorts of different types of keys that can open doors to massive worlds when you go out into the real world. None of my classes in and of themselves make more particularly qualified to do anything. It's only when I actually use the knowledge on a real-life project that I really gain the sticker of "does things."

Until knowledge is applied, I view it as "has the information needed to learn to do ____, ____, and _____."

CreamFilling512

I didn't really find most of my CS classes very useful, I still consider myself self-taught even with a CS degree. But being in a CS program gave me access to different opportunities in internships and networking which I consider valuable, even if the classes were not.

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

In reply to Bass

#Jan 2nd @ 1:16 PM

Not necessarily.

Whilst an MSc gives you a higher "lifetime earnings over money lost being in education" ratio than a BSc, a PhD doesn't. If you've got a PhD it means you can apply for more positions doing more specialist things in research, but it does not necessarily mean you command a higher salary. Those RA and Postdoc positions pay significantly less than what an MSc would be earning if he went straight into industry. The only real way a PhD can earn a 6-figure salary is if they go into the financial sector and put their qualiatative skills to use in enhacing some hedge fund.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

I think you have to look at this from 2 views, 1) from an employer's view and 2) from your own view:

1) From an employer's view. IT is perhaps the biggest meritocracy field out there. If you can do the job, and can prove it, you'll probably have one. Your merit is your degree. Different jobs require different level of knowledge of course...

2) I read recently about what makes one person more successful than another, and it's not talent, or genetics, or anything innate like that. It's perseverance. Perhaps a CS degree shows perseverance. To me, school is just fun. Plus you get to learn lots of theoretical stuff. I'm sure you can self-taught anything taught in a CS class... (if you're persevere enough of course Wink

)

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

Of course as you gather more experience the worth of your degree gets less and less (unless you're going for snobby consultancies where it's more about talking than doing)

Certainly employers may filter junior employees by the presence of a degree (although small shops won't care, nor will those with technical staff who can override personal and their blinkers).

But once you a decent amount of experience under your belt (and realise all that theory you learned can be wrong, or too heavy, or misapplied, just like patterns can) then the experience is going to count for more.

When I've been recruiting I've ignored degrees. And MSCDs.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to blowdart

#Jan 4th @ 8:32 AM

When I've been recruiting I've ignored degrees. And MSCDs.

Yeah, but... the example I often cite is if you have 2 seemingly equal candidates... and one has a degree and/or Certs... they aught to count for something....

I know "equal" is hard to parse... but you get those once in a while...

Of course as you gather more experience the worth of your degree gets less and less (unless you're going for snobby consultancies where it's more about talking than doing)

You're such a cynic Tongue Out

A CS degree is meant as a background for your future self... To be built upon... not meant as replacement for real-life experiece...

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to Minh

#Jan 4th @ 8:46 AM

Heh, not really; but I've never had to recruit junior staff; which obviously makes a difference. Actually I've never had equal candidates either, someone always shines more in the interview or the technical tests.

As for cynic? Meh, the consultancies that require degrees in the UK are the same consultancies that botch government project after project with massive cost overruns. And still get to bid again. Not somewhere I'd want to work anyway Smiley

Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

I think one big advantage of doing a CS degree hasn't been mentioned yet. When doing a degree, you spend several years surrounded by very smart people with a far more diverse variety of specialisations than you're likely to get at a single company. A smart mind can make good use of those resources. And of course if you want to go into academia or research, it's pretty much a must.

You can get a degree by going to classes and writing a thesis and doing nothing else. Then it doesn't have much more merit than the piece of paper at the end, which may give you a slight edge in a job interview. But if you actually open your eyes and look around while you're there, you can find there's a lot more to be gained than just a piece of paper. And sometimes while doing that, you get an opportunity that you would never have gotten otherwise. Like the opportunity to go study in Japan for a few years. Smiley

Just my 2 yen. Wink

cheong

Since noone seems to cover this...

IMO, in a lower programming position(P or AP), an I.T./CS related diploma/higher-diploma from technical colleges will provide you more relevent knowledges for your job (as it is designed to be).

When you climb higher, the university degree will prove to become more valuable. (I still can't understand why someone cannot be promoted to higher position even if he demonastrated that he has adequate skill/sense/knowledge to lead, when his highest education level is diploma only. Shouldn't education level be relevent for career building only when you apply for a new job, when the employer don't know you and the only objective document he/she can trust is your certificate?)

timothychung

Hey dpratt71,

Personally, I think your the value of a CS degree can be broken down into 3 components:
1) economical value - it is an entry ticket for a decent job and you will get economical return from it.
2) practical value - you have learned both generic and specific skill and knowledge, so that you are able to increase your rate to generate value with your IT and knowledge intellectual assets.
3) social value - you can help other people with IT problems. CS degree can serve as an interest for you and you become happier after doing it.

cheong

In reply to Sven Groot

#Jan 4th @ 8:59 PM

> When doing a degree, you spend several years surrounded by very smart people with a far more diverse variety of specialisations than you're likely to get at a single company.

It gain of it depends. If you've been classes where all teaching staffs having no experience on real world programming, the gain may be negative. (In the "programming project" which worth 6 credits, the curriculum said we shall form groups to produce a website following the software development cycle. Being taught by someone with no real world experience, while the workflow is the same as on the textbook, the detail is quite "acedemic", I'd say...

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to cheong

#Jan 4th @ 10:35 PM

This in the words of the Eric Meijers, is what is known as the "vegeterian butcher". For Eric, it is why he left Academia (he is a Professor) and headed towards somewhere like Microsoft where he could see the fruits of his labour.

I also think that you find very smart people that are not necessarily academically distinguished, though these are few and far between. Bill Gates, Anders Heijlsberg are not short in the brain department, and in my experience, in the real world meeting business leaders and thinkers, knowing your domain/business through experience is equally valuable.

Most of the time, these people cannot explain what an alogorithm is, but if you try to change a business process for example, having theorised about it, you are in for a big surprise. Both Academia and experience are essential, and the academics should not need to be told this - being as smart as they are - but they always lack this essential experience, hence always vote for x instead of x=y.

PS: In my Avatar I have "The Glass Bead Game" - a nobel peace prize winning book - which is a perfect example of this argument by the way. In it you have Castalia a supreme pedagogic province for the best students. It is secular, but they allow people from "outside". In the end you come to realise that both academia and experience are necessary.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

In reply to cheong

#Jan 4th @ 10:35 PM

Well you are assuming everyone wants to be a programmer their whole life. Smiley

CS is far more then programming (in fact most people would say it's a minor part of CS)..

You don't need a college degree to work as a programmer, especially as a CRUD programmer. You don't need a college degree to be a sysadmin either. These are probably the most common "computer" jobs out there. But they are also IMO very boring.

But here is some examples where a college degree really helps.

Any kind of research position. For instance, Microsoft researchers [all?] have PH.D. degrees. This is true for many/most other companies as well, and most definitely for University research (well at least BS/BA degree, but most have PH.D. and are called "professor" or "research professor").
Mangorial positions often require at least a BA/BS. Sometimes they even want Masters degree.
Some companies wont even hire programmers without a BSCS. This may become more common if the demand for programmers decreases.

At least in the federal government (and many local governments), simply having a college degree means you make often make more money with the same exact job title and responsibilities. What this means is you CAN get a job without the college degree, but you'll make less! The incentive pay is proportional to your academic level: High School (lowest pay), Bachelors (mid), Masters (mid-high), Doctorate (pretty high). Sometimes this has a huge effect on your pay, entry level college graduate can make more then H.S. programmer with 20 years experience. (Federal government tend to not value experience as much as education, from my "experience" with them.)
Another good example is the military. What separates an enlisted person from an officer? Well, really, [mostly] the college degree (Bachelors degree). Even the most big shot enlisted solider with 30 years tour E-9, still is of lower rank then the lowest ranked officer O-1 and on his/her first day of duty with just a Bachelors degree. So at least in the military, experience is much less important then academic achievements.

Of course I am just talking about pay & benefits, which having a college degree is a bit more then that. University education is not job training. It's something different.

cheong

In reply to Bass

#Jan 5th @ 6:35 PM

> Well you are assuming everyone wants to be a programmer their whole life.

No. Actually I think being able to program is a requirement. For managerial positions of I.T. (which is common target on most people's career path), most company's entry position is a PM (Companies seldom hires high position with less than 5 years of experience.). If you're in-charge of a project and your programming skill is not good enough to read the codes, just imagine what mess could happen to the project. And if you can't understand the difficulties of the people under you, I doubt the overall morale of team will be good as well.

I've seen inexperienced people with higher education level, hate to program, yet choosen PM position and dreamt to climb to higher position wreaked all kinds of havoc ranged from mis-calculated man-day to gradual deformation of program structure within programs. Promising "seemingly simple" function with impossibly little workday adds huge unnecessary stress to the whole team as well.

And no, at least in the short future, the demand ratio for non-BSCS holders for programming positions will increase. The economy situation is not good. I predict more companies will want to hire non-BSCS holders who can do the job for lower wages. This will cut down the cost and allow price drop in SI packages, hence making the company more competitive for new contracts.

Agreed on other things. Just as I said, if you climb to higher position, the knowledge you gain from CS degree will be more relevent.