system re-write (which tech?) | The Coffeehouse

Pace
In The Mix...

If you had to re-write a system to get it available online.

Would you have just a vanilla asp.net app or would you go for something like silverlight?

What are the benefits / drawbacks?

Thanks,

Pace

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

What type of system is it at present?
Why doe it need to go online?
How deep are the pockets of the people involved?
When does it need to be working by?
Who will project manage it?
What is the application currently written in?

Pace
In The Mix...

In reply to vesuvius

#Mar 12th @ 6:00 AM

1) Manufacturing ERP, CRM, Bill of Materials, Order Processing etc

2) New offices in Canada, Germany, Dubai, China - Currently sending out cut down versions of the app. Very messy, not workable, reports dont show true state of the company. Everything is very static

3) Pretty deep

4) 12 months

5) We have a pm in place

6) VBA, Access 2002 front end - SQL 2K5 back - since I arrived there are also some vb.net forms that replace a lot of the access ones, also I have removed as much as I can to sql sp's, views etc etc. Its still too fragmented. The original developer used to work on card systems etc so everything is very static, not normalised or OO at all. In fact I dont think he knew what OO was. So we have the ba's in mapping the process at the minute. As people work around the system and not with it.

This is a complete overhaul.

My problem here is I can do it in asp.net. Im just thinking as I have this oppertunity, do I jump into silverlight.

The more I think about it the more im thinking vanilla. Then just play with silverlight as and when I have the time.

Harlequin
http://twitter.com/TrueHarlequin

In reply to Pace

#Mar 12th @ 6:25 AM

You don't have a CTO or someone in charge of tech decisions? You need to think of software licensing, hardware. If you're a dev asking these questions this project has "fail" written all over it.

JeremyJ
The pioneers would be appalled!

In reply to Pace

#Mar 12th @ 6:25 AM

I would go with the asp.net/ajax route. It is a tried and true method and will get you to the results you need. You don't want to run the risk of designing an app and get half way through development and realise the technology you chose won't work the way you need it to.

Pace
In The Mix...

In reply to Harlequin

#Mar 12th @ 7:07 AM

We havent even started the discussions until the ba's have the process. Otherwise, whats to discuss? Tongue Out

I was after some simple benefits / drawbacks of silverlight over vanilla asp.net

eg; cross platform, multilingual, online / offline, disconnected models?, animations, is it fussy to code, whats the framework like, is the databinding any good, whats the toolkit like, is it more re-usable and so forth.

*sigh* Forget it, I can see where this is going and dont really want to go there...

Thanks for your time and have a nice day Smiley

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to JeremyJ

#Mar 12th @ 7:39 AM

Absolutely true., it's a case of better the devil you know, than the one you don't.

This does sound like a pretty big project, and I'd be careful to bite off more than I can chew, so you need someone who can perform requirements analysis very well going forward.

Another thing would be to write this in Visual Basic.NET as there is bound to be far much more support for this type of migration, because writing this in C# will require someone proficient in both VB 6 and C#.

Another thing is to break this down into modules, and rather than rewrite everything, write an ASP.NET module that solves a specific business need, then move onto the next. Just the fact that this is based in different locations, means you will get multiple headaches for things being late, not working at the same time, so someone to deal with this must be designated.

To learn Sillverlight well will take you 6 months before you are sufficiently dexterous, and whether you do this in ASP.NET or Silverlight, the client will just want something that works and solves their business need

Pace
In The Mix...

In reply to JeremyJ

#Mar 12th @ 7:39 AM

Perfect, thank you. Exactly what I was looking for Smiley

My senior dev is well into this and wants to take this route also. I was just playing office tennis with him over whats available Wink

figuerres
???

In reply to Pace

#Mar 12th @ 7:58 AM

hey just to reinforce what was said in part:

break this into a set of different stages, make it so that you can show how the later parts build on the first parts and how that will also help with testing at each milestone.

make sure to get a solid understanding with the key players that yes they will benefit but at the same time they need to have paitence and that this is a big thing to work on. that this will be like building a new office building, it will take time, matrials and such...
if you can find a way to have parts up and working at stages it will help them stay on board.

and for sure make the db stuff a priority, round up the access bits and get them into sql !!

sounds like it will be a good thing for the business if they let you do it right!

Harlequin
http://twitter.com/TrueHarlequin

In reply to Pace

#Mar 12th @ 7:55 AM

http://www.flashbulbinteraction.com/WTS_opening.html

This is something your architects and usabililty guys need to read. Hell make everyone read it.

You could even go the WPF route so there's some offline availability to the tools.

What is your position anyways? You mentioned BA, PM, and a Senior Dev. Where do you fit in?

magicalclick

Since it is an internal use, requiring silverlight is pretty easy. I am not familiar with both system, but, silverlight is a newer technology that I suspect it bringing something new to the table. I got a feeling that silverlight has more potential and easier to manage in the long run, just a hunch thought.

Aisde from your existing experience on either platform and other factors, I would also look at how easy is it commit changes on the system.

Check this video out first http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Continuum/SilverlightReadyForBusiness/
Also just for application examples, I think SalesForce is a fine example of pure online based system.
So far, internal ERP I have seen are WPF .Net Apps. You still need to install a thin client. IMO, WPF is easier to code, eye candy, and easier to manage.

harumscarum
out of memory

what no mention of winforms?

JeremyJ
The pioneers would be appalled!

In reply to harumscarum

#Mar 12th @ 8:45 AM

Winfoms probably wouldn't be a good solution because of the globalized nature of the company. It would be much more difficult to sync up all of the people, in all of the countries, with the correct version of the software than to point them to a web site that is continuously updated.

harumscarum
out of memory

In reply to JeremyJ

#Mar 12th @ 8:50 AM

Well we don't have any real details but reading this:

"1) Manufacturing ERP, CRM, Bill of Materials, Order Processing etc "

I would push more to a smart client type app (because of disconnected). I am biased though because I despise asp.net and web apps in general for Business apps.

Harlequin
http://twitter.com/TrueHarlequin

In reply to harumscarum

#Mar 12th @ 8:55 AM

But talking tech before business requirements is a big 'fail' like I said. For all we know part of their complete overhaul includes moving to Macs or Linux boxes. After you get the BRD then you talk tech.

figuerres
???

In reply to Harlequin

#Mar 12th @ 9:50 AM

YES!

first determine where you are going.

then you can find out how to get there at best cost / time.

you would not want to book a jet to cross the street right ?

nor would you hire a cab to travel cross country (say NY to LA) right?

silverlight, WPF , and other stuff may or may not be right for the project....
you do not know that yet.

harumscarum
out of memory

In reply to Harlequin

#Mar 12th @ 9:50 AM

well yeah but then this thread would be boring

ZippyV
Fired Up

In reply to harumscarum

#Mar 12th @ 8:55 AM

I agree, Winforms is a better idea. Silverlight is out of the question but asp.net could be possible too.

In Belgium the biggest telephone company uses webbrowsers (IE6 of course) in their stores. It's horrible to see the sales people struggling when they submit a form and get an HTTP error in return. They don't know why they get it, they just hit refresh and all the information is gone or the error persists. Shutting down the browser or even rebooting is their only solution. This is a horrible experience.

magicalclick

In reply to ZippyV

#Mar 12th @ 11:18 AM

My company is using SalesForce, never had a problem before. I don't like to manage hardware, so, I like services such as SalesForce or Azure.

Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

In reply to JeremyJ

#Mar 12th @ 8:50 AM

Not really, that's what ClickOnce is for. But if you go rich client, I'd go WPF and not WinForms if possible. Smiley

kettch

In reply to Sven Groot

#Mar 12th @ 5:26 PM

Yeah, WPF is going to be little better for globalization, data binding, forms validation, and a few other things.

I'm a big fan of supporting a disconnected state. It lets people look at data, run reports, etc when they have connection issues or are away from the office.

A couple of projects I worked on used a SQLCE local data store and some custom rolled code to sync data and schema back and forth with the main SQL Server database. The local SQLCE queries are suprisingly fast. We even used this in an environment that needed to be pretty much realtime and we were able to sync the data fast enough that nobody notices.

Another benefit to the SQLCE route is that the desktop apps, mobile apps, and server apps all use the same schema, data layer code and business objects.

vesuvius
Das Glasperlenspiel

In reply to kettch

#Mar 13th @ 1:42 AM

I'm afraid you are very wrong there. WPF has far better databinding, but at this early stage, implementing the MVVM results in a heck of a lot of coding whereas in winforms you have your binding source and disconnected datasets so you are good to go.

Adding a dataset you have synchronisation services build in

but the WPF programming model is not based around datasets as they are passe. Windows forms allow you to achieve MVVM without any coding because you essentially have a .NET client application with a dataset (the View Model) from a webservice without all the ceremony you have with WPF.

I have been working through the southridge demo, and you really have to do a heck of a lot of coding to achieve anything resembling a Line of business application and if I had to make the choice on a product today, winforms would be the option.

The southridge application does look good, but I would argue that it offers very little return on investment from an Office 2007 ribbon. the datagrid is more flexible, with the ability to add in whatever columm types you like, but I would use the devexpress or xceed datagrids as they have all this built in and they are far much faster that WPF.

JeremyJ
The pioneers would be appalled!

In reply to Sven Groot

#Mar 12th @ 5:26 PM

I have used ClickOnce and like it for smaller applications but it still has a few shortcomings. One, for example, is having to install a version for every user on the same computer. For manufacturing or other work where people work in shifts on the same machine, this can get very cumbersome.

figuerres
???

In reply to JeremyJ

#Mar 13th @ 5:40 AM

Yeah I have said this to MSFT folks, we need an option for an "All users" install for some cases.
perhaps if enough folks point this out we will get it some day Smiley

AndyC

In reply to figuerres

#Mar 13th @ 7:03 AM

That sort of runs contrary to the whole point of ClickOnce though, which is to provide a very low-impact installation experience. Providing an all-user option would allow for Standard Users to potentially tamper with the installation used by others, which would be deeply worrying from a security point of view.

For an application which can't function per-user, I'd have thought traditional installer techniques were vastly preferable to the majority of System Administrators (myself included).