http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.pnghttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/10 times longer battery power with an air-fuelled batteryhttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/en-usThu, 28 May 2009 02:47:56 GMTThu, 28 May 2009 02:47:56 GMTEvNet (EvNet, Version=1.0.3608.3122, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null)<p>first make them, then made electric cars accessible to anyone, and after that we'll figure out who to sue :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470845Thu, 28 May 2009 02:46:50 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4708450http://channel9.msdn.com/470845/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0first make them, then made electric cars accessible to anyone, and after that we'll figure out who to sue :)Ion Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470845/Trackback.aspx<p>Pretty much, but I know who to sue to those damn gas stations. In the case of bettery rental, it is more complicated. For example, someone drive from back alley station and swap the new one in a good station. The back alley bettery is so bad beyound restore. Should the good station spend tons of money buying new bettery to prevent me sueing them? Or should they ban the customer who brings bad battery from back alley station? But you can't&nbsp;ban customers as&nbsp;they are victims as well.</p> <p>Simply put, it is hard to point fingers when bad battery is circulating around, unless you get battery monopoly.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470836Thu, 28 May 2009 00:58:06 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4708360http://channel9.msdn.com/470836/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Pretty much, but I know who to sue to those damn gas stations. In the case of bettery rental, it is more complicated. For example, someone drive from back alley station and swap the new one in a good station. The back alley bettery is so bad beyound restore. Should the good station spend tons of&#8230;magicalclick0http://channel9.msdn.com/470836/Trackback.aspx<p>So I assume your suspision is founded on the fact that you often fill up your car with water at the gas station?</p> <p>Just don't lend batteries from dealers in a back alley :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470687Wed, 27 May 2009 06:51:06 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4706870http://channel9.msdn.com/470687/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0So I assume your suspision is founded on the fact that you often fill up your car with water at the gas station? Just don't lend batteries from dealers in a back alley :)Maddus Mattus0http://channel9.msdn.com/470687/Trackback.aspx<p>Why do I assume I have to sue someone? Simple, because bad people are out there. It is highly likely they sell bad betteries and I need to know I have being tricked. And when I find out those people are selling bad batteries, I need to know who I can sue. And obviously I have to read the term of use, contract, and whatever to make sure they can't get away with it.</p> <p>And this is important when you rent a better from Mobile Station and then switch bettery in a Shell Station. Who is going to deal with the quality of the bettery pack? Meaning, who is going to spend extra money on maitaining the bettery quality? And who is at fault when they (stations)&nbsp;receive dead betteries all the time and unable to recycle them as it should? Who is going to regulate the quality of bettery restoration, FDA, FBI, or something?</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470655Tue, 26 May 2009 21:43:30 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4706550http://channel9.msdn.com/470655/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Why do I assume I have to sue someone? Simple, because bad people are out there. It is highly likely they sell bad betteries and I need to know I have being tricked. And when I find out those people are selling bad batteries, I need to know who I can sue. And obviously I have to read the term of&#8230;magicalclick0http://channel9.msdn.com/470655/Trackback.aspx<p>6h is enought for when the sun cames back "on" :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470580Tue, 26 May 2009 08:42:51 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705800http://channel9.msdn.com/470580/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=06h is enought for when the sun cames back "on" :)Ion Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470580/Trackback.aspx<p>Capacitators constantly leak energy.</p> <p>They would not hold charge for more then a couple of days.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470574Tue, 26 May 2009 06:38:12 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705740http://channel9.msdn.com/470574/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Capacitators constantly leak energy. They would not hold charge for more then a couple of days.Maddus Mattus0http://channel9.msdn.com/470574/Trackback.aspx<p>A microwave beam, that GDI sometimes can use to blow stuff up :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470573Tue, 26 May 2009 06:37:05 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705730http://channel9.msdn.com/470573/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0A microwave beam, that GDI sometimes can use to blow stuff up :)Maddus Mattus0http://channel9.msdn.com/470573/Trackback.aspx<p>Ah, you mean the gigantic windmill parks in the sea that cost more to energy to keep operational then they produce?</p> <p>Renewable energy is a hoax, we need power 24/7 anything else is just folly. We don't want&nbsp;our lights to go out, just because there is no wind today or sunshine today/tonight.&nbsp;As long as we are unable to store vast amounts of energy (like an ocean that we can pump full if we have power excess and drain if we have a higher demand) we are reliant on fossil fuels.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470572Tue, 26 May 2009 06:36:23 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705720http://channel9.msdn.com/470572/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Ah, you mean the gigantic windmill parks in the sea that cost more to energy to keep operational then they produce? Renewable energy is a hoax, we need power 24/7 anything else is just folly. We don't want&nbsp;our lights to go out, just because there is no wind today or sunshine&#8230;Maddus Mattus0http://channel9.msdn.com/470572/Trackback.aspx<p>A really really long extension cord.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470571Tue, 26 May 2009 06:34:25 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705710http://channel9.msdn.com/470571/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0A really really long extension cord.Sven Groot0http://channel9.msdn.com/470571/Trackback.aspx<p>And the power would come to Europe how?</p> <p>It would be lost in transport.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470570Tue, 26 May 2009 06:32:16 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705700http://channel9.msdn.com/470570/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0And the power would come to Europe how? It would be lost in transport.Maddus Mattus0http://channel9.msdn.com/470570/Trackback.aspx<p>Yes, just that we don't have batteries to store energy of that magnitude, yet. Maybe we'll use building size ultra capacitors? :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470562Tue, 26 May 2009 03:15:48 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705620http://channel9.msdn.com/470562/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Yes, just that we don't have batteries to store energy of that magnitude, yet. Maybe we'll use building size ultra capacitors? :)Ion Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470562/Trackback.aspx<p>That's where the batteries come in.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470508Mon, 25 May 2009 11:30:22 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705080http://channel9.msdn.com/470508/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0That's where the batteries come in.ZippyV0http://channel9.msdn.com/470508/Trackback.aspx<p>There already are solar plants in Arizona (AFAIK), the issue is that they don't deliver any electricity at night :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470507Mon, 25 May 2009 09:39:37 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705070http://channel9.msdn.com/470507/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0There already are solar plants in Arizona (AFAIK), the issue is that they don't deliver any electricity at night :)Ion Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470507/Trackback.aspx<p>We could also place huge solar plants in deserts like the Sahara, hoping it'd fix our energy problems. In conjunction with the batteries, that would rock.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470503Mon, 25 May 2009 08:11:42 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4705030http://channel9.msdn.com/470503/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0We could also place huge solar plants in deserts like the Sahara, hoping it'd fix our energy problems. In conjunction with the batteries, that would rock.Dorian Muthig0http://channel9.msdn.com/470503/Trackback.aspx<p>It may be that your infrastructure is not ready but in Israel, Denmark and other places (some of US, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.), we are moving aggressively towards an oil-free economy with a battery swap/charge infrastructure based solely on renewable energy. Better Place is responsible for moving entire countries off oil. No vaporware involved. Battery life-time and capacity expected to rise consistently over the years but not required for feasibility.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470354Sat, 23 May 2009 10:29:10 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4703540http://channel9.msdn.com/470354/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0It may be that your infrastructure is not ready but in Israel, Denmark and other places (some of US, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.), we are moving aggressively towards an oil-free economy with a battery swap/charge infrastructure based solely on renewable energy. Better Place is responsible for&#8230;Bent Rasmussen0http://channel9.msdn.com/470354/Trackback.aspx<p>@Harbie.&nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; The "propane" model is where it almost has to go.&nbsp; You don't drive 10 mile to wait and fill up your propane tank for your grill any more.&nbsp; You go to your local gas station and grap a new filled tank (that is also reconditioned) and return your old tank - all in about a minute.&nbsp; People are not going to wait hours to charge their batteries at a station.&nbsp; Just does not scale.&nbsp; The standardization thing will be important&nbsp; - at least in form and connectors.&nbsp; The guts can change as technology improves.&nbsp; Maybe this will be the return of the full service gas attendant of the 50s and 60s to change batteries and also wash the windows.&nbsp; Would put a lot people back to work :-)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470258Fri, 22 May 2009 15:42:50 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4702580http://channel9.msdn.com/470258/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0@Harbie.&nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; The "propane" model is where it almost has to go.&nbsp; You don't drive 10 mile to wait and fill up your propane tank for your grill any more.&nbsp; You go to your local gas station and grap a new filled tank (that is also reconditioned) and return your old tank - all in&#8230;William Stacey0http://channel9.msdn.com/470258/Trackback.aspx<p>Dr Herbie :)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470014Thu, 21 May 2009 06:22:40 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4700140http://channel9.msdn.com/470014/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Dr Herbie :)Ion Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470014/Trackback.aspx<p>I would assume that the charging stations would have a returns policy (they would have to take the mileage of the car when they fit the battery and the serial number of the battery I would guess). You return the faulty battery to the company's charging station and they refund your money plus more for you inconvenience (I like rmh's idea that they provide a pickup service).&nbsp; The charging station would then take it up with the battery supplier\manufacturer (with whome it is assumed they you have a service&nbsp;level&nbsp;agreement).</p> <p>Why do you assume you have to sue someone?&nbsp; It's entirely possible to have these things set up in the legal contract of the purchase\rental.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Herbie</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470012Thu, 21 May 2009 05:50:18 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4700120http://channel9.msdn.com/470012/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I would assume that the charging stations would have a returns policy (they would have to take the mileage of the car when they fit the battery and the serial number of the battery I would guess). You return the faulty battery to the company's charging station and they refund your money plus more&#8230;Herbie Smith0http://channel9.msdn.com/470012/Trackback.aspx<p>I don't really care the technology. I mean if I pay 50 miles of battery and end up going 10 miles, and I know the battery is at fault because my next battery is fine, who do I sue?</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470010Thu, 21 May 2009 04:21:52 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4700100http://channel9.msdn.com/470010/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I don't really care the technology. I mean if I pay 50 miles of battery and end up going 10 miles, and I know the battery is at fault because my next battery is fine, who do I sue? &nbsp;magicalclick0http://channel9.msdn.com/470010/Trackback.aspx<p>ultracapacitors are way cooler, amazing, there is even a bus route is Shangai that uses ultracapacitors</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470008Thu, 21 May 2009 04:07:12 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4700080http://channel9.msdn.com/470008/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0ultracapacitors are way cooler, amazing, there is even a bus route is Shangai that uses ultracapacitorsIon Todirel0http://channel9.msdn.com/470008/Trackback.aspx<p>Forget electric cars, I'd say that better batteries are one of the top 5 more important technical advancement right now. Frankly they're the biggest hurdle for mobility and also one of the biggest hurdles for a lot of renewable energy as well, since they're often too inconsistent to be relied upon for power directly.</p> <p>But that being said, it seems like every six months there is a new "HUGE breakthough! New battery promises 400x existing models!" But yet these products rarely hit the market. Plus the last batch of new technology in the battery department seems to have a worrying habbit of catching fire...</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=470001Thu, 21 May 2009 01:39:23 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4700010http://channel9.msdn.com/470001/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Forget electric cars, I'd say that better batteries are one of the top 5 more important technical advancement right now. Frankly they're the biggest hurdle for mobility and also one of the biggest hurdles for a lot of renewable energy as well, since they're often too inconsistent to be relied upon&#8230;ManipUni0http://channel9.msdn.com/470001/Trackback.aspx<p>It depends entirely on the model of the contract, but rhm's model above sounds plausable.</p> <p>The idea that you 'rent' the materials of a product has been put forward as a way to ensure that the materials are recovered and recycled efficiently&nbsp;by encouraging ecologically intelligent design&nbsp;(<a href="http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm">http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm</a>). Batteries for electric cars would fit this model well:&nbsp; the battery suppliers would find it cheaper to recondition batteries than to build new ones from scratch. It would be cheaper still to ensure that the batteries can be efficiently recycled into new batteries from the start.</p> <p>It's obvious that electric cars aren't going to replace petrol anytime soon, and they may get taken over by hydrogen fuel cell technology, but the work done on efficiency for electric cars can be applied to other appliances.</p> <p>I like the idea that with both electric and fuel-cell cars the energy source can be decoupled from the engine. Yes, the energy might come from fossil fuelled power stations, but it could equally come from nuclear, hydro-electric, geothermal or wind powered sources.&nbsp;</p> <p>Herbie</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=469952Wed, 20 May 2009 19:34:17 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4699520http://channel9.msdn.com/469952/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0It depends entirely on the model of the contract, but rhm's model above sounds plausable. The idea that you 'rent' the materials of a product has been put forward as a way to ensure that the materials are recovered and recycled efficiently&nbsp;by encouraging ecologically intelligent&#8230;Herbie Smith0http://channel9.msdn.com/469952/Trackback.aspx<p>Rent battery? So who do I sue when I rent a crappy battery that did't have enough charge than I paid for?</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=469948Wed, 20 May 2009 19:07:49 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4699480http://channel9.msdn.com/469948/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Rent battery? So who do I sue when I rent a crappy battery that did't have enough charge than I paid for? &nbsp;magicalclick0http://channel9.msdn.com/469948/Trackback.aspx<p>Your statement&nbsp;10x faster charge ~= 10x the current required to charge is not true.</p> <p>A lot of charge is lost in heat. Some batteries do not have this issue.</p> <p>Batteries are a hot topic of research. In the labs I see more promise in bacteria based batteries than these inorganic batteries. It is a tricky problem. My department, as with many others, groups Chemical and Biomolecular engineering together. We will see what wins out from the labs.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=469940Wed, 20 May 2009 17:44:11 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4699400http://channel9.msdn.com/469940/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Your statement&nbsp;10x faster charge ~= 10x the current required to charge is not true. A lot of charge is lost in heat. Some batteries do not have this issue. Batteries are a hot topic of research. In the labs I see more promise in bacteria based batteries than these inorganic batteries. It is a&#8230;intelman0http://channel9.msdn.com/469940/Trackback.aspx<p>I want to know who's going to build all the power stations to run all these charging stations!&nbsp;</p> <p>10x faster charge ~= 10x the current required to charge.</p> <p>People who deny the need for nuclear power in an age when everyone will be driving electrics cars has their head in the sand.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=469937Wed, 20 May 2009 17:37:32 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/469863-10-times-longer-battery-power-with-an-air-fuelled-battery/?CommentID=4699370http://channel9.msdn.com/469937/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I want to know who's going to build all the power stations to run all these charging stations!&nbsp; 10x faster charge ~= 10x the current required to charge. People who deny the need for nuclear power in an age when everyone will be driving electrics cars has their head in the sand.PerfectPhase0http://channel9.msdn.com/469937/Trackback.aspx