Project Natal + Windows | The Coffeehouse

aL_
Rx ftw

ok first off, there needs to be a channel 9 video on natal Smiley

But also, id like to start a petition to get windows drivers for this thing.. i dont own a xbox 360 but i'd buy the natal in a heartbeat if i could program against it Smiley and i know im not alone..

yes i know the natal is not even beta yet, but the sooner we make our voices heard the better Smiley

--edit--

in case you havent heard, billy G himself reckons natal is heading to windows Big Smile

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10286309-56.html

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

I wonder if this will be possible...

I mean, MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it. And the licensing fees usually depend on how widely the gadget is used...

If MS paid $X to have it on the Xbox, then MS would have to pay $X + $Y to also have it be used on Windows...

This is different than the Xbox joypad controller that MS made available on the PC also because the joypad is as commoditized as it gets -- even though they did have to shell out some more dough for rumble...

We'll just have to see I guess... Although if you see games on XBLA using Natal, then it will probably mean it'll be available for XNA... which will probably mean it'll be available on the PC

Unless some genius crack the protocol. Is Brian Peek already on it? haha

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to Minh

#Jun 5th @ 7:35 AM

as far as i understand ms bought the company [3DV] that built the 3d camera so that should be fine.. in any case id still have to buy a retail natal [producing royalties for whoever], its not like they know i dont have an xbox Smiley

but still i see how that could be a problem.. i hope it isnt though Tongue Out

i hear the software is the really tough bit in the natal, taking the point cloud and extracting a trackable skeleton from it seems like heavy stuff.. check out this blog post from the awsome johnny lee: http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-natal.html

--edit--

the natal wikipedia page is coming along nicely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natal_(Video_Game_controller) [the last parenthasies doesnt get included when you click the link for some reason]
those TOF cameras are pretty impressive Perplexed i wonder if the tracking calculations are done on the natal it self or on the host.. [host seems likely though]

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to aL_

#Jun 5th @ 7:45 AM

according to this article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2009296568_e3_new_info_on_microsofts_nata.html

a PC version/compability of natal doesnt seem entierly out of the question! Big Smile

Q: You've apparently drawn on the gesture recognition work that led to Microsoft's Surface computer.

A: I think it's very smart for people to look at Natal and think about natural user input and how it applies in front of your TV, how it might apply sitting in front of a laptop or sitting in front of a PC.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

MS didn't invent this technology, they are licensing it.

ms bought the company [3DV] that built the 3d camera

As far as I know, 3DV didn't build Natal, and Microsoft didn't license it. It was built by Microsoft, and they bought 3DV to prevent others from licensing similar technology. See here. Even if the hardware is designed by 3DV, they didn't license the technology, they bought it. (3DV sold all their assets to Microsoft after all.) So using it on Windows shouldn't be a problem licensing-wise.

I'd love to see some drivers for it. It should be able to solve the old 'I don't want to sit with my arms outstretched' problem people apparently have with touchscreens. And using it for media center would be awesome. Flip through your albums, make a hush-hush gesture to turn down or mute the volume, throw up the horns to play your death-metal playlist...

Also, I'd want this to happen if only for the facial recognition. Sit down in front of your PC and hey, you're logged in. Sounds awesome. Smiley

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to Bas

#Jun 5th @ 8:13 AM

i think 3dv built the depth maera, they apparently had a some sort of 3d webcam lined up but then ms bought them (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZCam) in any case, i hope licensing wont be a problem

the face recognition login would be really great, but also think of what you could do with the POV/head tracking.. you could make sure messages appear where the user is (or is not) looking [on a multimon system for example] you could "peek" outside the edge of your desktop by meaning to the opposite direction Smiley

also, because you sit much closer to your pc than your tv, the depth resolution (in x/y) should be higher so maybe you can have it track your hands and fingers.. if thats possible, imagine the a 3d modeling app where you actually use your hands to manipulate your model Scared just beeing able to do minority report type manipulation on the pc would be great Smiley

maybe i shouldnt get to exited yet though Smiley the word is still out on accuracy and resoultion i suppose Smiley

figuerres
???

In reply to aL_

#Jun 5th @ 8:30 AM

I can imagine a *LOT* of uses for this tech for a pc....

for example a disabled person who may have very limited use of arms and legs able to use one hand and or the face to control stuff at home... could be great for that kind of thing.

and yes i can see using it for media center and for pc games....

Dare I say this? World Of Warcraft on a giant screen with this controller ??? I think that would be cool for WOW fans! Smiley

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

Even if Microsoft doesn't write drivers for this thing, someone will. The problem is how much of the machine vision algorithms are done on the ASIC and how much is done in the driver.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

In reply to figuerres

#Jun 5th @ 11:03 AM

WoW is repeptitve strain, people are always looking for ways to make stuff like grinding more efficent and automatic, not harder or more interactive. Smiley

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

I just discovered that Natal is like, not coming out for a long time. Seriously what is it with Microsoft and annoncing things like years in advance? When Apple announces a product, it often comes out the next day.

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to Bass

#Jun 5th @ 12:00 PM

unless its not that far away Big Smile consider win7, first it was going to come out some time in 2010 but now they're thinking october.. also, they have the dev kits so it cant be that far off.. but maybe in just wishing Tongue Out

@disabilities

thats also a great use Smiley i wonder if it can also track the point where the user is watching.. it seems sorta likely based on the demos they've shown. devices like that are usually really expensive but the natal is a mass market product so it will be available for everyone Smiley
please, mighty lords of channel9, talk to the natal team Smiley [and tape it Tongue Out ]

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

In reply to Bass

#Jun 5th @ 12:00 PM

Natal is not a product. Snow Leopard was announced, what, two years ago?

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to PaoloM

#Jun 5th @ 3:32 PM

true but apple is the king of hype Wink also the products are pretty diffrent.. having devkits must mean the at least got a somewhat finished api..

btw it seems natal is doing at least some processing internally [check out some of the info "dots" here], good for speed but possible bad programability.. i prefer speed in this case though. the speculation continues... Tongue Out

--edit--
the internal processor info is also on wikipedia.

CreamFilling512

In reply to Bass

#Jun 5th @ 12:00 PM

It's a platform though like, they're just saying "hey we made this cool stuff, sent out a bunch of dev kits, expect cool games in the future". I can't believe someone would complain about a company being open about their roadmap. Apple being secretive isn't helping anything except Apple.

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to aL_

#Jun 5th @ 5:52 PM

I'm guessing it's like the wiimote, which has an IR camera, but you have no way of getting the raw IR image. There's an onboard processor that analyses the image from the IR camera, does blob tracking and stuff like that, and then gives out an image with up to four dots. I'm guessing Natal has a similar processor that gives you the individual joints it sees and perhaps an ID for the face it recognizes (as well as a simple RGB image, see the video chat or the reflection in the water in the Milo demo), but not the actual raw grayscale depth-image.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

In reply to CreamFilling512

#Jun 5th @ 8:54 PM

I'm sorry, but it's quite a rare occasion when I am actually excited about a Microsoft product. But wait, this isn't a product. Well at least it has a release date.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to Minh

#Jun 5th @ 7:35 AM

Have you guys seen Sony's answer to the motion controller question?

OK, first of all, augmented reality is cool...!!!

Secondly, I think Sony's solution has a better chance of creating good games than Natal, at least in the near-term... It's really like a WiiMote... with much greater pointing range... since w/ the WiiMote, the camera inside it must see the IR lights in the sensorbar.

I think Natal is going to miss having a trigger... Unless all Natal games will be of the Wii Fit variety...

I'm hoping what we're seeing in Natal isn't the final version

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to Bas

#Jun 6th @ 1:49 AM

I'm guessing it's like the wiimote, which has an IR camera, but you have no way of getting the raw IR image

I think you do have access to the image buffer... You saw the facial recognition demo... I guess the camera can always hash your face and send it to the Xbox... but I think MS has bigger plans for the camera than just as a motion controller.

Minh
WOOH! WOOH!

In reply to aL_

#Jun 5th @ 8:30 AM

i think 3dv built the depth maera, they apparently had a some sort of 3d webcam lined up but then ms bought them (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZCam) in any case, i hope licensing wont be a problem

Hmm... It would seem that MS does own Natal entirely -- who knows... IANAL...

But that does bode well for having a cheap full-body motion controller for Windows...

exoteric
I : Next<I>

In reply to Bass

#Jun 5th @ 12:00 PM

I actually prefer having this knowledge. Yes, it's like waiting for the candystore to open but if you want ignorance, just turn off the PC Wink

aL_
Rx ftw

In reply to Bas

#Jun 6th @ 1:49 AM

possebly Smiley allthough you can actually get the ir image from the wiimote, you can see it in the wii when you adjust the brightness of the wiimote camera.

it seems likely that they would make the blob identificationon the device using an fpga or something but i wonder if they do the joint calculations of there..

come on microsoft give us more info Tongue Out you cant drop a bomb like that on a nerd like me and then not provide more info Wink i wonder if this was the secret thing beckman was working on or if that is something diffrent

PerfectPhase
"This is not war, this is pest control!" - Dalek to Cyberman

In reply to Minh

#Jun 6th @ 8:28 AM

I can't believe that there won't be something like the sony/wii controller being added to Natal. People like props, and you'll need something extra for really fine precision, but I think the the Natal technology is a better base to build on.

BrianPeek
I like pie.

In reply to Minh

#Jun 5th @ 7:35 AM

Heheh...As soon as they give me one, I'll be on it. So, likely about a year from now. Tongue Out

Bas
It finds lightbulbs.

In reply to PerfectPhase

#Jun 6th @ 12:07 PM

In case of stuff like racing games.. why not just hold something round? I mean, the Wii racing wheels are really just plastic wheels with a controller in them. With natal you wouldn't even need the controller, just the plastic wheel.

Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

In reply to Bas

#Jun 7th @ 1:39 AM

I remember way, way back I used to play Need for Speed with the Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle Pro (basically a gamepad with sensors in it so you could use it as an analog controller by moving it around). It didn't work so well, mainly because there's no feedback, no resistance, no indication when you are steering as much as possible. Steering wheels don't really work for me unless they're attached to something.

Not to mention that for arcade racing games, a regular d-pad controller or even the keyboard will almost always be easier and allow you to be faster. Realistic controls are only suited for realistic games.