Perhaps SQL isn't interesting? But it sure is ! | The Coffeehouse

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

I hoping that I'm not right but I kind of getting the impression that developers in general aren't really all that interested in SQL or SQL Server any more?

There always seems to be a buzz around .Net or UI stuff but I don't get the impression that there is the same feeling with SQL Server stuff.

I get this impression because when I talk to developers they aren't really interested to talk about the new stuff in 2008 and what is coming in 2008 R2, it's all abit mehhh ...

... which is the same feeling I get when I look at the stuff they've made in SQL it literally is CRUD and never very good at that.

So tell me if I'm right ... or that I'm talking utter tosh!

I would love to know so I can work out how to get them interest so I can get better written databases because they work but not as good as they could do, but these same guys produce some amazing .Net.

Thanks!

JoshRoss
A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.

I for one do not want my database to be exciting, I just want it to work. That said, there are all kinds of new stuff in the SQL 2008 ecosystem geared towards devs, namely the Entity Framework.

I love the 08 T-SQL enhancements like CTEs, windowing functions, pivoting, better xml support, new data types, and geometry constructs. Although the geometry constructs feel rather half baked.

So, from my perspective, you're talking utter tosh.

-Josh

spivonious

I thought the whole point of Linq-to-SQL and Entity Framework was to take the SQL out of development?

I definitely understand what you're saying though. My boss uses Toad for everything even if it means many more steps than writing a simple update statement. She's just not interested in learning the queries.

As far as new features go, coming from the Oracle side of things, these features are almost always geared towards the DBA and not the developer, so I tend not to pay too much attention.

PerfectPhase
"This is not war, this is pest control!" - Dalek to Cyberman

Big issue for me is I look at the new features, FILESTREAM would be a god send for something I'm working on, but have to target 2005, so can't use all the new shinnyness. Infact spec'ing 2005 didn't go down to well with some of our customers, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Dr Herbie
Horses for courses

In reply to spivonious

#Jun 11th @ 10:15 AM

I have found there are generally two types of developers (with respect to databases):

Developers who started writing applications and discovered databases were a useful place to store data. (I am this type).
Database admins who discovered that they could code up a better UI for their database.

Type 1 developers tend not to see database as anything other than a data store and these are the devs who tend not to be interested in new SQL developments. They are also the majority of developers

Type 2 devs tend to want all the logic in stored procedures, while Type 1 want it all in code.

The other issue is that Type 1 developers tend not to be so good at SQL. I can string a complex SQL statement together, but it's a struggle and they tend not to be performant. SQL takes a different kind of thinking than OOP and I'm just not there yet.

We briefly had a Type 2 developer at our company (he mistakenly thought he was going to be included in redundancies and got another job before we told him we wanted to keep him), and he did things like rewriting an old stored proc that took 3min 45 seconds to a version that took 15 seconds. Useful guys, Type 2s.

Smiley

Herbie

spivonious

In reply to Dr Herbie

#Jun 11th @ 10:35 AM

I agree, although I'd describe myself as "Type 1.5" Smiley

If it makes sense to put in a stored procedure (e.g. some common function that lots of programs are going to use), it's going in the database. If it's something specific to my app, then it's going in code.

Maybe it's because I took a database course in college that was all T-SQL.

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

Interesting.

Type 1 = Front Office Developer?

Type 2 = Back Office Developer?

Funny as your comments make me think about what has happened to 3 tier development thinking? So the 1.5 guy still the Business Logic guy? So really three types?

Also what happened to working out where is the best place to execute code? i.e. field data validation in the UI? lots of row update is better in the database?

Geez I know about customers/business still wanting to stay on SQL Server 2000, explaining what 'out of support' means and using 'risk to the business' kind of turns that thinking around PDQ.

I know that some still don't get it even after using phrases like 'strongly advise' ... then you really are down to the '10 year old unserviced car which you business data is sitting in' analogy ... then you know you're onto a losser if they don't get it after that ... and then it's a chat to the CEO that's needed. If you're still stuffed you know your not dealing with 'bright bunnies' that don't take IT (i.e. the tool that helps business 'do' business) seriously. So my advice would be to get the hell out of there cos it's gonna be luck or unshrinking market share that's gonna keep them in business ... and not much else.

Bass
www.spreadfirefox.com/5years/

I hate CRUD development. I hate "business logic", or LOB apps, or basically anything "enterpriseish". Precisely because it isn't interesting... to me at least. Anything highly mathematical, involving neural nets, hidden markov models or genetic algorithms is what I like to code. Hell, I'll work on a team that codes a RDBMS, but f**k if I ever making a living solely coding against one.

JoshRoss
A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.

In reply to Bass

#Jun 11th @ 11:39 AM

Have use used the SQL Analysis Services? If you have some time, get the evaluation copy and try using the Excel Datamining Add-in to get started with seeing what you can put in and spit out. When you get your head wrapped around that, you should be able to program against it or at least have a better understanding of what kind of problems can be solved with this class of tool.

figuerres
???

In reply to Dr Herbie

#Jun 11th @ 10:35 AM

I guess I am type 3 or is that 4 ??

I did start with coding apps, learned about data and sql.

spent a lot of time doing DBA things and Dev things....

to me it's a ballance - a Yin / Yang thing.

I love the things I can do in C# and I love the things i can do in T-SQL each has a place in my work.

Red5
Systems Manager Curmudgen

In reply to figuerres

#Jun 11th @ 1:51 PM

DITTO

Dr Herbie
Horses for courses

In reply to Red5

#Jun 11th @ 8:10 PM

I think experience makes a developer a 'type 3' (that's type 1 plus type 2 Big Smile ).

I'd consider myself perhaps a 2.5 : I know how to architect a good solution, but I'm just not an SQL guru (yet) so the database tier is my weak point. I'm not a solo developer so there are a couple of devs who can help out there, but we do seem to be lacking an SQL superstar at the moment to balance the team out.

Herbie

Ion Todirel
buuu

In reply to spivonious

#Jun 11th @ 10:39 AM

>I agree, although I'd describe myself as "Type 1.5" Smiley

how would you store a double in an integer? and if your thinking on doing a enum I'll give you a bool

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

In reply to JoshRoss

#Jun 11th @ 11:56 AM

If you like the Excel link to Analysis Service you are going to LOVE Project Gemini that will come in SQL Server 2008 R2

http://blogs.msdn.com/sqlcat/archive/2008/10/06/project-gemini-building-models-and-analysing-data-from-excel.aspx

... and if you want to have a very brief high level overview of what coming in SQL Server 2008 R2 ....

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

The thing is if SQL Server is somewhere in your development stack you've gotta get to know it well because it's could so eaily add lead boots to your projects.

Yes it is a Yin/Yang thing, you do have to put code into the right place and working out that balancing act does take knowledge either built up by experience or from the many good educational materials, books and webcasts (most of them free from Microsoft!)

I would have to stab myself in the head if I did UI stuff all day ... now that is boring! Programming all that validation, working out the next scenario where a user can be stupid, not interesting at all Devil

On a serious note, I did enjoy UI coding but I don't have the temperment for it.

So you get the big no-no's in SQL Server right? Like Select * is bad?

You get why getting the right 'Collations' is very important? ... and which ones have been deprecated?

Why DBA's don't like LINQ? ... it's all about the Query Plan Baby!

Why the new MERGE command is very cool? ... well get's you into the pub early.

... and not to mention the game changers coming in SQL Server 2008 R2 !

Geeeez I could talk all day, I will pull out some of my favourite Microsoft webcasts for you to watch.

AndyC

In reply to Sabot

#Jun 11th @ 11:05 PM

Was SQL ever interesting? I think it has to be one of the dullest things in the whole wide world. Tongue Out

littleguru
<3 Seattle

SQL and SQL Server are tools... they are working fine and there's not THAT much innovation going on recently. That's probably why...

spivonious

In reply to Sabot

#Jun 11th @ 11:05 PM

MERGE is perhaps the greatest addition to SQL of all time.

Ion Todirel - I didn't know it was an integer... I guess my type got truncated to Type 1.

Harlequin
http://twitter.com/TrueHarlequin

In reply to spivonious

#Jun 12th @ 6:36 AM

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=663

Eve Online is about to move it's SQL back-end from SQL 2005 to SQL 2008, I think 64 bit. Will have to see if it makes the game any quicker and stops any lag Smiley

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

In reply to littleguru

#Jun 12th @ 3:25 AM

Ok, so SQL Server isn't as 'Rockstar' as Silverlight but the innovations really don't get any .... BIGGER!

Let me give you a couple of examples, this one quoted straight from the 2008 R2 website,

Combines native Excel 2010 functionality with an in-memory, column oriented processing engine to allow users to interactively explore and perform calculations on millions of rows of data at lightening speeds

How many CPU's?

Increase in the number of logical processors supported from 64 up to 256. This will provide customers with more choices for obtaining single system scalability with high performance.

Scale Your Data Warehouse from Terabytes to Petabytes (website for more info is here)

“Madison” is a highly scalable appliance for enterprise data warehousing.
It is the next step in the evolution of the data warehouse appliance created by DATAllegro.
Madison uses massively parallel processing (MPP) to deliver the high performance and scalability on SQL Server 2008, Windows Server® 2008 and industry-standard hardware.
The MPP architecture helps enable better scalability, better and more predictable performance, reduced risk and a lower cost per terabyte than other DW solutions.

A Madison MPP appliance acts as an enterprise “hub” that publishes data as needed to various business units or departments (spokes). For dedicated high performance requirements, individual business units can redeploy SQL Server 2008 data marts, or deploy their own Madison appliances, as spokes.

See! SQL Server is sub-zero cool!

ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

I'm type 1. I can do the following:
- Connect to the database
- Standard basic queries

That's pretty much it. But it is certainly a cause for concern as far as my skill set goes. I just haven't decided what route I want to take in order to increase my SQL knowledge without doing it on-the-job. Anyone know a good resource to help self-teach SQL? Like a *cough* free *cough* course with exercises and some tips thrown in?

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

In reply to ManipUni

#Jun 12th @ 9:33 AM

Manip I'm like your Fairy-God-Father today! So I will grant your wish for free SQL Server training !!!!

Lots of webcasts and Virtual Labs : http://www.microsoft.com/events/series/technetsqlserver2008.aspx?tab=overview

.... or better still download the ... THE SQL SERVER DEVELOPER TRAINING TOOLKIT

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=e9c68e1b-1e0e-4299-b498-6ab3ca72a6d7

... the toolkit takes on the road from being a Type 1 to a Type 2!

ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

In reply to Sabot

#Jun 12th @ 9:47 AM

Indeed you are sir. Thanks <3

Red5
Systems Manager Curmudgen

Writing highly efficient T-SQL code in scalable environment, and understanding what goes into type of code, has been one of the bigger challenges that I've enjoyed taking on in my humble developement career.
In many interviews that I've held to hire these type of people, you'd be surprised how few candidates really know their stuff in this regard.

JoshRoss
A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.

In reply to Sabot

#Jun 12th @ 9:47 AM

I haven't looked through the training material. However, I find most training docs rather drab. Have you solved any of Itzik Ben-gan's puzzles? He publishes some good ones!