http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/Dev/App_Themes/C9/images/feedimage.pnghttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/Who wants to change the world?http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/en-usSat, 18 Jul 2009 00:42:49 GMTSat, 18 Jul 2009 00:42:49 GMTEvNet (EvNet, Version=1.0.3608.3122, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null)<p>Yes... eventually. I've just got a few things I want to clean off my plate first, gimmie a few more days.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=479465Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:42:49 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4794650http://channel9.msdn.com/479465/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Yes... eventually. I've just got a few things I want to clean off my plate first, gimmie a few more days.W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/479465/Trackback.aspx<p><blockquote><div>W3bbo said:</div><div></p> <p>Why isn't source code saved to CIL (just with lots and lots of extra symbols and metadata) which we can then edit in any language or syntax/coding convention?</p> <p>That way someone can edit a file in VB and another person can edit the same file as though it were C#.</div></blockquote></p> <p>That is an interesting idea, much better than rewriting the 7zip algorithm, which I think is quite useless, if you're not surpassing performance of all prior implementations, but that doesn't seem to be your goal here, if at all possible.</p> <p><blockquote><div>AndyC said:</div><div>Then there is the thorny issue of how you store invalid code.</div></blockquote>The same way you'd store comments, I'd guess. Either in a plain text wrapper, or in a wrapper storing language properties and code as is, if it's a compile failure.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=479459Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:28:29 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4794590http://channel9.msdn.com/479459/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0W3bbo said: Why isn't source code saved to CIL (just with lots and lots of extra symbols and metadata) which we can then edit in any language or syntax/coding convention? That way someone can edit a file in VB and another person can edit the same file as though it were C#. That is an interesting&#8230;Dorian Muthig0http://channel9.msdn.com/479459/Trackback.aspx<p>Is this project going ahead as planned?? I am interested in joining... </p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=479457Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:48:23 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4794570http://channel9.msdn.com/479457/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Is this project going ahead as planned?? I am interested in joining... anand0420080http://channel9.msdn.com/479457/Trackback.aspx<p>It's also kind of a pain if you only have access to a plain text editor at the time. Then there is the thorny issue of how you store invalid code.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475351Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:18:42 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4753510http://channel9.msdn.com/475351/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0It's also kind of a pain if you only have access to a plain text editor at the time. Then there is the thorny issue of how you store invalid code.AndyC0http://channel9.msdn.com/475351/Trackback.aspx<p>On an orthogonal subject, it's 2009, why are codefiles still (for all intents and purposes) plaintext?</p> <p>Why isn't source code saved to CIL (just with lots and lots of extra symbols and metadata) which we can then edit in any language or syntax/coding convention?</p> <p>That way someone can edit a file in VB and another person can edit the same file as though it were C#.</p> <p>I appreciate this scenario only works when the languages chosen are more-or-less compatible with each other, obviously you couldn't do COBOL.NET vs. F#.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475347Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:45:37 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4753470http://channel9.msdn.com/475347/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0On an orthogonal subject, it's 2009, why are codefiles still (for all intents and purposes) plaintext? Why isn't source code saved to CIL (just with lots and lots of extra symbols and metadata) which we can then edit in any language or syntax/coding convention? That way someone can edit a file in VB&#8230;W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/475347/Trackback.aspx<p>What was that Dr. Herbie? I couldn't quite hear you.</p> <p>Actually, I could quite hear you.</p> <p>You're out on both of my projects!</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475340Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:39:01 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4753400http://channel9.msdn.com/475340/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0What was that Dr. Herbie? I couldn't quite hear you. Actually, I could quite hear you. You're out on both of my projects!Minh0http://channel9.msdn.com/475340/Trackback.aspx<p>*whispers to W3bbo* <em>Not Minh. Don't let him in, he's weird</em>.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475338Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:24:47 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4753380http://channel9.msdn.com/475338/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0*whispers to W3bbo* Not Minh. Don't let him in, he's weird. &nbsp;Herbie Smith0http://channel9.msdn.com/475338/Trackback.aspx<p>I want to fork this project!</p> <p>The requirements are identical to W3bbo's</p> <p>but no opening-brace-on-same-line weirdos. Strictly for opening-brace-on-next-line believers, please.</p> <p>I also want to fork my own projects. No C# weirdos. Only for VB heroes please!</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475335Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:03:47 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4753350http://channel9.msdn.com/475335/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I want to fork this project! The requirements are identical to W3bbo's but no opening-brace-on-same-line weirdos. Strictly for opening-brace-on-next-line believers, please. I also want to fork my own projects. No C# weirdos. Only for VB heroes please!Minh0http://channel9.msdn.com/475335/Trackback.aspx<p>Is there a codeplex link yet?</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475165Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:54:45 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751650http://channel9.msdn.com/475165/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Is there a codeplex link yet?ZippyV0http://channel9.msdn.com/475165/Trackback.aspx<p>++. It's hard to read and plain disgusting!</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475163Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:47:52 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751630http://channel9.msdn.com/475163/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0++. It's hard to read and plain disgusting!Christian Liensberger0http://channel9.msdn.com/475163/Trackback.aspx<p><blockquote><div>Also there's evidence to suggest that managed code can run faster than natively compiled code.</div></blockquote></p> <p>Don't get your hopes too high about that. While that might be true for some cases that's hardly the norm. Some reasons:</p> <p>- The JIT compiler can sometimes use "better" instructions than an "normal" compiler because it knows exactly what processor is running on. But also the JIT compiler has speed constraints that may prevent it from optimizing the code as much as a "normal" compiler.</p> <p>- There's overhead caused by runtime checks like checking array bounds and checking for nulls. You cannot avoid these.</p> <p>- GC overhead. That might be very small and compensated by faster allocations and better memory locallity. But depending on your data structures and allocation rate it can also have a large overhead. Out of curiosity I recently converted some personal project from native C++ to C++/CLI and the GC time went through the roof. Hardly surprised as the program allocates about 150 mbytes in less than 3 seconds and all data structures used in it are "linked list" style.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475158Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:31:26 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751580http://channel9.msdn.com/475158/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Also there's evidence to suggest that managed code can run faster than natively compiled code. Don't get your hopes too high about that. While that might be true for some cases that's hardly the norm. Some reasons: - The JIT compiler can sometimes use "better" instructions than an "normal" compiler&#8230;Dexter0http://channel9.msdn.com/475158/Trackback.aspx<p>Fair enough.</p> <p>It'll be interesting to see the speed comparisons once it's done. There's certainly a lot to be said for .Net's ability to JIT compile code for the CPU it's about to run on.</p> <p>Is there GUI stuff within the 7z.dll? I hadn't noticed any, though I've not really looked for it either.</p> <p>With my project I figured it'd be good to, hopefully, be able to drop in updated 7z.dll versions without having to recompile anything. I'm not sure if the binary interface has breaking changes between versions, though, so that may not turn out to be possible. My project is already one DLL of many, so there's not much to gain from avoiding one extra DLL. If I had astandalone .exe then I'd definitely see the advantage of keeping it that way, as you're doing.</p> <p>FWIW, 7z.dll seems to be the only DLL that's needed to get support for all the formats. (I think all the other DLLs are cut-down versions of 7z.dll with formats removed or read-only support, etc., except for 7-zip.dll which is the shell extension. )</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475155Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:16:52 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751550http://channel9.msdn.com/475155/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Fair enough. It'll be interesting to see the speed comparisons once it's done. There's certainly a lot to be said for .Net's ability to JIT compile code for the CPU it's about to run on. Is there GUI stuff within the 7z.dll? I hadn't noticed any, though I've not really looked for it either. With my&#8230;LeoDavidson0http://channel9.msdn.com/475155/Trackback.aspx<p>PInvoke is disallowed under lower trust levels, so say... an ASP.NET application on a common-or-garden webhost couldn't handle 7z files. Also there's evidence to suggest that managed code can run faster than natively compiled code. Then there's the size advantage, the 7zip binaries are 2.41MB (granted, this includes the GUI and support for other file formats; if you want to include 7zip support in your application you need to include at least the 7z.dll file which is over a megabyte in size). I believe a managed solution can do it in under 100KB (which can then be ILMerged into your primary assembly, simplifying distribution).</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475150Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:49:51 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751500http://channel9.msdn.com/475150/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0PInvoke is disallowed under lower trust levels, so say... an ASP.NET application on a common-or-garden webhost couldn't handle 7z files. Also there's evidence to suggest that managed code can run faster than natively compiled code. Then there's the size advantage, the 7zip binaries are 2.41MB&#8230;W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/475150/Trackback.aspx<p>I'm curious: How come you guys don't want to go the PInvoke route?</p> <p>Support for other archiectures/OS? Fewer DLL files? So it's "pure"? Just for fun? Or?</p> <p>Seems like a set of compression algorithms are something that would benefit from staying in C++/ASM. (7zip is already multi-threaded, as far as I can tell, by the way. At least, it uses both my CPU cores when I compress to zip or 7z, as I recall.)</p> <p>Have you considered using C++/CLI? I did a small test project a few years ago and found it was fantastic for wrapping C++ code to be used with .Net.</p> <p>Whatever the reasons for the project, good luck!</p> <p>I've been integrating it into a C++ app recently, as it happens, and it's a great library. Once you get over the initial hump so many archive formats "just work" with very little extra effort. The initial hump is a bit of a pain as there's not much documentation on how the library works and it's lacking proper DLL-client-side header files and related definitions (e.g. archive interface GUIDs), but some hunting around in the source and sample code quickly sorts that out.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475148Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:39:50 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751480http://channel9.msdn.com/475148/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I'm curious: How come you guys don't want to go the PInvoke route? Support for other archiectures/OS? Fewer DLL files? So it's "pure"? Just for fun? Or? Seems like a set of compression algorithms are something that would benefit from staying in C++/ASM. (7zip is already multi-threaded, as far as I&#8230;LeoDavidson0http://channel9.msdn.com/475148/Trackback.aspx<p>There's plenty of evidence that <em>I</em> don't like reading one-true-brace style code. :)</p> <p>Anyway, I'm not on this project (no time for it), so it's not as if my opinion matters.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475147Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:36:01 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751470http://channel9.msdn.com/475147/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0There's plenty of evidence that I don't like reading one-true-brace style code. :) Anyway, I'm not on this project (no time for it), so it's not as if my opinion matters.Sven Groot0http://channel9.msdn.com/475147/Trackback.aspx<p>Neah, it's not that bad. The least readable formatting style is the GNU one :S.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475146Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:35:02 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751460http://channel9.msdn.com/475146/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Neah, it's not that bad. The least readable formatting style is the GNU one :S.Dexter0http://channel9.msdn.com/475146/Trackback.aspx<p>Well, much as I personally despise that style, Steve McConnel in Code Complete states that there is no evidence that reading ease is affected by either style, and that's good enough for me.</p> <p>W3bbo's project, W3bbo's rules. :)</p> <p>Herbie</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475145Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:33:56 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751450http://channel9.msdn.com/475145/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Well, much as I personally despise that style, Steve McConnel in Code Complete states that there is no evidence that reading ease is affected by either style, and that's good enough for me. W3bbo's project, W3bbo's rules. :) Herbie &nbsp;Herbie Smith0http://channel9.msdn.com/475145/Trackback.aspx<p>Yeah, I've actually never seen it with C# but all Java source that I look at is riddled with it :(</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475138Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:19:15 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751380http://channel9.msdn.com/475138/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Yeah, I've actually never seen it with C# but all Java source that I look at is riddled with it :(KevinB0http://channel9.msdn.com/475138/Trackback.aspx<p><blockquote><div>Ewwww.</div></blockquote></p> <p>Seconded. It's easily the least readable formatting style in existence.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475132Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:02:52 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751320http://channel9.msdn.com/475132/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Ewwww. Seconded. It's easily the least readable formatting style in existence.Sven Groot0http://channel9.msdn.com/475132/Trackback.aspx<p>I dont' fight VS, VS works with it very well; you just change the formatting options. The only thing VS doesn't play well with is indenting empty lines. VS2003 did it, but 05 and 08 stopped doing it for some reason.</p> <p>Also, "Smart formatting" is the work of the devil.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475128Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:47:11 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751280http://channel9.msdn.com/475128/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I dont' fight VS, VS works with it very well; you just change the formatting options. The only thing VS doesn't play well with is indenting empty lines. VS2003 did it, but 05 and 08 stopped doing it for some reason. Also, "Smart formatting" is the work of the devil.W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/475128/Trackback.aspx<p><blockquote><div>W3bbo said:</div><div>the opening brace appears at the end of the line the statment keyword appears</div></blockquote></p> <p>Ewwww. Wasn't there some C# coding standards somewhere that explicitly forbade that? It means you spend half your time fighting Visual Studio, leads to more errors and looks fugly.</p> <p>And because of that, I'm out &lt;/Dragons Den&gt;</p> <p>;)</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475114Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:49:46 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4751140http://channel9.msdn.com/475114/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0W3bbo said:the opening brace appears at the end of the line the statment keyword appears Ewwww. Wasn't there some C# coding standards somewhere that explicitly forbade that? It means you spend half your time fighting Visual Studio, leads to more errors and looks fugly. And because of that, I'm out &lt;/Dragons Den&gt; ;)AndyC0http://channel9.msdn.com/475114/Trackback.aspx<p>Just to say, I'm ready to start in a couple of weeks.</p> <p>If no-one minds, here are my coding conventions:</p> <p>Tabs for indentation; indent empty lines; spaces for alignment; align setters; the opening brace appears at the end of the line the statment keyword appears on; follow the official CLR API naming conventions for publics; private fields use underscore prefix; when using XML comments use condensed form (tags appear on the same line as the text) and if there's more than 5 lines move it to an external XML document; and wrap lines at 160 columns.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=475058Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:05:37 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4750580http://channel9.msdn.com/475058/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0Just to say, I'm ready to start in a couple of weeks. If no-one minds, here are my coding conventions: Tabs for indentation; indent empty lines; spaces for alignment; align setters; the opening brace appears at the end of the line the statment keyword appears on; follow the official CLR API naming&#8230;W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/475058/Trackback.aspx<p>I haven't received an e-mail. Maybe you got the riddle wrong ;)</p> <p>I'll use the contact form on your site.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=473792Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:33:02 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4737920http://channel9.msdn.com/473792/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0I haven't received an e-mail. Maybe you got the riddle wrong ;) I'll use the contact form on your site.Tommy Carlier0http://channel9.msdn.com/473792/Trackback.aspx<p>tommy, I emailed you the other day, but I got a Delayed Delivery report, then an NDR.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=473760Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:57:30 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4737600http://channel9.msdn.com/473760/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0tommy, I emailed you the other day, but I got a Delayed Delivery report, then an NDR.W3bbo0http://channel9.msdn.com/473760/Trackback.aspx<p><strong>"P/Invoking to the 7z DLLs"</strong></p> <p><strong>-------------------------------<br /></strong></p> <p>And here is library that does exactly that:</p> <p><a href="http://www.codeplex.com/sevenzipsharp">http://www.codeplex.com/sevenzipsharp</a></p> <p>There is even a channel9 thread:</p> <p><a href="http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/TechOff/419331-Simple-C-7-zip-library/">http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/TechOff/419331-Simple-C-7-zip-library/</a></p> <p>Just in case if someone doesn't know it.</p>http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=473633Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:26:28 GMThttp://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/473468-Who-wants-to-change-the-world/?CommentID=4736330http://channel9.msdn.com/473633/WebViewBug.aspx?EVT=0"P/Invoking to the 7z DLLs" ------------------------------- And here is library that does exactly that: http://www.codeplex.com/sevenzipsharp There is even a channel9 thread: http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/TechOff/419331-Simple-C-7-zip-library/ Just in case if someone doesn't know it.wastingtimewithforums0http://channel9.msdn.com/473633/Trackback.aspx