Comment Feed for Win7=Fonts for the web! ? (Coffeehouse on Channel 9)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

You can't handle my name — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:19:25 GMT

"my c/windows/ font folder is 1 gig."

lol why jamie why? the last place I'd want to dump a lot of fonts is that directory.. whats the point in having applications like Word showing 100's of fonts, just more to sift through. And shipping with 2000 fonts?!?! nutz even 200 is too much... you'll only find less than creative people using very stylized fonts in a bad way.

If you're using Adobe apps this is far better place to leave extra fonts...

"C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Fonts"

Anyway I support css3 webfonts // messy solutions like using sifr to get fonts to the web aren't good, unlicensed fonts can still be used and its even harder to find out exactly which fonts they are using.. at least with direct linking to raw fonts its out in the open for anyone to check on valid licensed usage and also see who the original author of that type face is without having to get in contact, its good and there are plenty of free fonts to use in this scenerio.

OTW should get support in all browsers. http://blog.fontembedding.com/post/2009/06/10/New-Web-Fonts-Proposal.aspx

And EOT can be left behind along with IE for all I care.

"Looks like it's everyone with an XBOX 360 avatar... servers down, perhaps?"

heh who cares they looked rubbish anyway :P

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

Harlequin — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:04:59 GMT

Gotcha. Was just werid, Jamies was showing up where mine was supposed to be, then a few seconds later the broken avatar image.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

JonathonW — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:52:07 GMT

Looks like it's everyone with an XBOX 360 avatar... servers down, perhaps?

edit: Looks like scheduled downtime: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/zune-service-offline-tuesday-to-work-on-xbox-features.ars

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

Harlequin — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:49:58 GMT

I have a new topic. Are avatars dying for anyone else on C9? :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

figuerres — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:25:10 GMT

"I give up.

I have no idea what you're saying most of the times anyways."

in this case I think he is on a "Crusade" rather than beeing willing to discuss what would be the best possible way to help the user. in such a case logical discussion goes no where, the Crusader is not interested in logic, only in defending one goal.

Jamie: you are a talented guy, i respect your abilities... I just think in this case some of us see this one idea as not the best way to go. you have your idea, I do not agree, i stated why.

Next topic....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

Harlequin — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:39:08 GMT

Look how Silverlight does fonts. It's just embedded as a resource in the .dll and distributed through the xap file. Same thing as embedding. If I had to deploy Silverlight apps that "depended" on the fonts being installed on the users computer I'd be screwed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

PaoloM — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:14:58 GMT

I give up.

I have no idea what you're saying most of the times anyways.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

blowdart — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:22:19 GMT

if there were one thing youd WANT windows to install -(after itself) wouldnt it be fonts?

No, I'd rather have functionality installed than give ammunition to pathetic little web designers who think fonts are the best way to express their creativity.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:47:24 GMT

ps - even if above happened - and win 7 was a smash - that would be only small percentage using newest windows..

who cares! zebras in america - look at my hooves! my hooves!

no - we need FONT action

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:28:00 GMT

my c/windows/ font folder is 1 gig.

how big is your drive?

if there were one thing youd WANT windows to install -(after itself) wouldnt it be fonts?

* i have a terrabyte drive - a gig of fonts is a floppy

* and that would make all web devs be able to use 1000's of fonts.... for windows users
(*hey id like for all - but lets get all win users first)

edit WEFT BEHIND

* for people who think having some fonts will hurt your machine - ok - how about... 200 fonts (not 2000)

...200 native fonts..with Windows ...for the WEB

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

Sven Groot — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:22:41 GMT

no ordinary webpage maker uses embedding.

Then we need to improve the tools so that they do.

I certainly don't want to waste disk space on 2000 fonts that I'll hardly ever use.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:12:23 GMT

no ordinary webpage maker uses embedding.

they use arial, verdana, tahoma, times and comic sans. if your lucky they use trebuchet, impact and segoe UI ( well more like font face ="segoe UI, Tahoma, helv, sans serif") but what ever

in general - everybody uses the main fonts windows ships with. this is a fact. overall.

so - ship with 2000 fonts - usher in a new web!!!!!

(and make the "font" part - downloadable - to WINDOWS users)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

PaoloM — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:07:07 GMT

thats embedding - im talking ( hoping) for local

What is the difference? I mean, what's your goal? Do you want to be able to define precisely the font that the user will see? Then embedding is perfect.

Why does the user need to have the font installed?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:57:36 GMT

thats embedding - im talking ( hoping) for local

*web devs would use all fonts if some big company would just say "fonts for the web!"

who will it be?

- ms buys corel (excluding WP) makes fonts commodity (bundles)
- google does same - launches open font warehouse (dynamic)

* i want the 2000 font ms bundle that works in other apps!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

PaoloM — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:56:14 GMT

Did you even bother to read the link I posted?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:55:12 GMT

...see there are ways to be evil... but still give everyone fonts! (mostly everyone) ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:30:22 GMT

ps - dynamic fonts - sounds like something google would announce:

New from Google: All the fonts in the world on the web.

Just click here to subscribe to the Google live open font web - and your browser will automattically support over 300 fonts - and counting!"

so... we wait for that - or go for 2000!! ... on local machine for real

edit: im sorry but i have to say..again... that if ms bought draw / photopaint and painter - and added them to expression ( plus did the web font thing) adobe stock would go ...down

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:57:41 GMT

how did copeland get away with it then?

edit : all replies above = licencing... NO licencing RIP off - set free - fonts everywhere

seriously - what has ms to gain from fonts apart from using them through corel

and STILL setting them free - to bug adobe

(last i heard Expression suite was a non-starter... have we got the fp vs ex web #'s yet? )

edit: Helvetica? meet MS Ettica

Linux? you thought you had no fonts before... couldnt even deal with the main 6 let alone 30 - lets see how you do when the WEB moves to 2000 fonts - licenced free to all Windows Users ..using IE

*ok there is licencing - but windows users do not deal with it

** maybe even any browser ON windows - doesnt deal with it... not sure

(windows, windows, windows) !

Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

brian.shapiro — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:50:35 GMT

I'd like Calibri more than Segoe to be a standard Web font. Calibri is like the sans serif version of Georgia

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

figuerres — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:27:04 GMT

well sorry but i think that

1) *if* msft were to do the "2000 fonts" they would have to cover the messy licensing costs - you may not see this is a big deal but it is.

2) Next comes the law suits that would follow this... even if they were without merit msft would have to deal with the costs of them.

3) "IE ONLY" would be non-enforcable - it would have to be windows, any app that runs on windows.

4) why? again what is the benefit to 90% of the users of windows ? sorry but as far as i can tell this costly idea only benefits a small number of the userbase.

like i said just get a good set of faces for the os and then get on the standard.

for MSFT the winning press angle (IMHO) is to work with the standards body and show MSFT as a fair player in the WWW / W3C. Push the "We do not want to be the evil giant of the software world" that would give Mr. Steve a good story to push that would clearly put MSFT in a positive light.

And let's not forget that there are other OS'es and Browsers out there, they are not going to all disapear next year... so a standard that gets better type into more browsers means that web designers have a clean way to build better sites that will "just work" for the customer. the desinger should not have to make 2 versions of a site one for windows and another that looks worse for everyone else. thats the wrong way to do it. if you want to "Publish to the WWW" that is.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

PaoloM — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:41:18 GMT

I love SiFR, but you're right. Fonts should only be used for the purpose they were licensed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

Harlequin — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:32:07 GMT

There is also SiFR and others like it. Uses Flash to write out the font, even selectable as text too. Problem is, again, you're back to licensing issues. Subscribe to the "i love typography" blog, to see how much work people actually put into making fonts. I think the same mentallity needs to go towards having music embedded in your page.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

PaoloM — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:17:39 GMT

If all you want is "ie only", then you just need WFET3 and any font of your choice.

Problem solved.

Next!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

me — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:29:16 GMT

hmmm i dont agree - licencing and embedding are messy

although many will not agree with me either - notice the "ie only"

I seriously dont think ballmer has any intentions of just doing a good deed for all - but he MIGHT do one for windows users
"got IE? Welcome to the 2000 font web"

id like that.

Edit: there comes a time when certain functionality gets incorporated into the OS
As a non-programmer - I submit that FONTS should be considered a core part of the entire system

*windows machines ARE the internet... no more: only 30 fonts....

THINK OF THE PRESS :)

*may as well grab coreldraw and painter while youre at it ... whistle whistle...

Re: Re: Re: Win7=Fonts for the web! ?

figuerres — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:23:02 GMT

Adobe never "owned all the fonts" not by a long shot. they had a set of outlines that went with the PostScript engine yes but that was 36 faces.

Type Faces are owned by the creator / Type Foundry ... Like Monotype for example.

now if you look at a catalog of many faces most of them are just slight variations on a few of the classic ones like Times or Helvetica.

I think really that "the average joe" will generally not even see the differences between many of the faces out there.

so this brings up the question of how much benefit to how many users at what cost?

Now I think that a set of faces like the classic 36 PS faces would have a good value .... but not 2K or more.

aside from that IMHO if you feel strongly on this get with Bill Hill and the WC3 on the standards for FontEmbeding in html.

I do think that getting all the major players in line on that would be great -- down the road we could see less giant jpegs on pages just to spell out one or two words like say "Shell" or "Microsoft" or whatever.... and that would also make them searchable and more userfull for the blind etc...

PS: Faces NOT Fonts, you should licence a face and then have the rights to use that face in all it's forms. you do know that yes?