Posted By: androidi | Jul 1st @ 1:35 PM
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Going on the assumption that the problem was lack of visibility and partial working flight instruments (ie. no attitude etc readings but enough manual control to actually fly it), I would've simply asked for a beverage in a glass and watched the surface of that to determine the orientation of the plane.  I would've also had a propeller hat with a speed-o-meter that I could've put out of the window to get the speed. Smiley

stevo_
stevo_
Human after all

?

edit: should say that given how long its taken you to think up this 'idea', I think the plane would be long crashed..

ManipUni
ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

You have no air speed, no air pressure, and no altitude readings. Plus it is at night (with weather conditions) so visual clues are all but nonexistent.

Your stick shaker concept might work but then again it might not, you could end up going too high, too low, too fast or too slow. You also might lose a lot of altitude on the aircraft each time you test your airspeed until you crash into the ocean and die. Since going close to stall speeds reduces your air speed significantly and costs you altitude.

Ultimately a pitot-static system failure is a no-win scenario at night. The best you can do is have another aircraft escort you like a tug.

The glass angle thing is fairly pointless since they already have a much more accurate (and not computer controlled) version of the same in every aircraft for the last 100+ years. Your propeller hat also wouldn't work because of the way air pressure works. Turning the number of rotations into anything meaningful would be no easy task and might just be fruitless.

GPS wouldn't work since it wouldn't tell you your *actual* speed, just your ground speed. You might be able to create a GPS backup that waits for a pitot-static failure and then assumes your airspeed based on the previous pitot static readings and the relative ground speed. But of course that wouldn't help if the plane just took off (which is often the case with this type of technical fault).

I have no solution for this type of fault except, design aircraft with more redundancy. This is an extremely light and cheap piece of technology so why not put in less accurate versions all over the aircraft? The main "super accurate" one goes down, then bring up one that is 10-20% off and fly with that.

Why wouldn't they have air speed or altimeter? These things don't require computers or even electricity.  I always assumed even modern aircraft are equipped with conventional instruments as backup.

ManipUni
ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

Because the pitot-static system failed. The media reports of computer failure are misleading.

Sven Groot
Sven Groot
My name has 9 letters. Coincidence? I think not...

Airbus's don't allow you to stall the aircraft as long as the flight envelope protection system is functioning. If it's not I doubt the stall warning system is working reliably either.

The glass of water thing would only be useful if the backup attitude indicator is not functioning, and would only tell attitude, not altitude or airspeed.

As for the multiple computer failure thing, from what the article says there's very little information they're basing that conclusion on. What the media reports and what the investigators are actually thinking are often two completely different things, especially considering that the media often doesn't understand how modern aircraft work.

Simple fact is the cause of the crash is unknown. Computer failure or pitot system failure, both are just educated guesses at this point.

I always try to avoid flying on Airbus planes, they always make weird noises. Tongue Out

CannotResolveSymbol
CannotResolveSymbol
{insert caption here}

Sven Groot said:
The glass of water thing would only be useful if the backup attitude indicator is not functioning, and would only tell attitude, not altitude or airspeed.

And, it's worth noting, wouldn't even tell attitude accurately if the plane were accelerating.

Computer failure isn't likely to take down a plane with competent pilots aboard.  One pilot would fly the plane using the mechanical backup instrumentation (the A330, as with any glass-cockpit aircraft, has a traditional attitude indicator, altimeter, and airspeed indicator in the cockpit for use if the computer system fails) while the other attempts to bring the computer system back online.

ManipUni
ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

Here is the messages received in order.  

- WARNING - Auto Pilot involuntary disengage
- WARNING - Flight Control Protection degraded. High, low speed lost. Bank and Angle of Attack Protection degraded
- Alternative Law* Set
- WARNING - Loss of instrument precision
- WARNING - Auto Thrust involuntary disengage
- WARNING - TCASE failure (Traffic Collision Avoidance System)
- WARNING - Rudder Limiter Failure
- FAILURE - Pitot probes (Pitot Static System failure)
- WARNING - Loss of instrument precision
- WARNING - Air Data Reference rejected (junk got fed into the Flight Computer)
- FAILURE - Backup Airspeed, Altitude, Pressure sensor failure
- FAILURE - Inertia Reference System fault (altitude, flight path vector, track, heading, acceleration, angular rates, ground speed, vertical speed, and aircraft position lost)
- WARNING - Primary flight control computer fault
- WARNING - Backup Flight control computer fault
- WARNING - Flight Management Guidance Envelope computer fault

Alternative Law = Fly by wire but with safety systems disabled (e.g. Limiters)
Normal Law = Full fly by wire with all safety systems (normal flight status)
Direct Law = Manual control

 

ManipUni
ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

Previously: "An Air France Airbus A340-300, registration F-GLZL performing flight AF-279 from Tokyo Narita (Japan) to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France), was enroute at FL310, when the airplane went through a line of thunderstorms. The captain's air speed indication suddenly dropped to 140 knots, the systems issued an alert regarding disagreeing speeds (NAV IAS DISCREPANCY), the navigation display showed a tail wind component of 250 knots. The captain released control of the airplane to the first officer and tried to switch his display from ADIRU1 to ADIRU3. 2 minutes later autopilot and autothrust disconnected and the fly by wire changed into alternate law. The crew noticed icing conditions (static air temperature [SAT] -29 degrees Centigrade) and switched anti ice including pitot heating systems from automatic to on. The speed indications became normal again and agreed again, the autoflight systems were reengaged and ATC informed of severe icing. ATC reported, that two flights had just passed the location without problems. When the crew attempted to reset and reengage ADIRU 1 two times, the system again brought the message "NAV IAS DISCREPANCY" on both attempts, although the speed data appeared consistent. The crew suspected polluted pitot tubes.

Maintenance found, that the drainage holes of all three pitot tubes had been clogged, rendering it very likely that weather combined with the clogged drainage holes caused the incident. Maintenance had reported more clogged drainage holes on A330 and A340 aircraft in the past to Airbus Industries. Airbus Industries was aware of the problems, changes had already been introduced to the pitot tubes on the A320 family, where similiar problems had occured. A modification of the A330/A340 pitot tubes was already planned by AI."


That sounds very familiar. In fact almost identical.

figuerres
figuerres
???

"Going on the assumption that the problem was lack of visibility and partial working flight instruments (ie. no attitude etc readings but enough manual control to actually fly it), I would've simply asked for a beverage in a glass and watched the surface of that to determine the orientation of the plane.  I would've also had a propeller hat with a speed-o-meter that I could've put out of the window to get the speed."

have you even flown a large aircraft at night or in a storm?

before my current work, when i got out of high school i joined the US Air Force. I was a crew chief for a C-141...

while i did not fly the plane i was trained in maintaining them and so forth.. spent a lot of time with flight crews and with what works / does not work on a large jet.

sounds like that jet was in very bad trouble and at best you would have been able to sit and shake in your seat for a few minutes before you went down ....  when that much fails at night forget it, your gonna land really hard - as Chuck Yeager would say they "screwed the pooch"  not nice, not fun, and a very bad day.

PS: I have seen a C-141 land with a broken main landing gear part called a "dog leg" that was an amazing sight, 9 times out of 10 that would have been a fatal crash, the pilot had to land at a very strange angle to bounce the broken gear into the right angle to then drop down on it and roll to a stop...  picture a big plane landing on one set of wheels on one side at an angle and then slowly droping onto the other main gear very slowly.....

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