Posted By: Kryptos | Jul 6th @ 3:57 AM
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Comments: 59 | Views: 812
TommyCarlier
TommyCarlier
I want my scalps!

Native video support is not ditched. The only thing that's dropped is the required codecs. The <audio> and <video> tags will still be part of the standard but the required codecs that browsers will have to support are not defined (just like with the <img> tag).

<ms-video>   wm*  </ms-video>   microsoft     wm*    ie9      Standard

 

stevo_
stevo_
Human after all

Makes me wonder if its basically the same thing, unless adoption causes others to bow in its not really going to be a replacement for flash video when you can't serve the same video to 'everyone'.

I wonder if it is even possible to check for actual support of a codec without browser sniffing and mapping browser versions to 'isSupported'..

I think its a bit of a blow..

CannotResolveSymbol
CannotResolveSymbol
{insert caption here}

You don't need to check for support yourself--  the video tag allows you to specify multiple sources, and the browser picks whichever one it supports.  So, right now you just encode in both OGG and H.264, embed them both, and your video will work in all browsers supporting the video tag.

blowdart
blowdart
Peek-a-boo

What happens if the browser supports both?

You don't need to check for codec support. You can specify a list of video files in different formats and the browser is supposed to pick the first one it can play:

<video width="640" height="480" controls="controls">
    <source src="__MY_VIDEO__.ogv" type="video/ogg" /><!-- Firefox native OGG video -->
    <source src="__MY_VIDEO__.mp4" type="video/mp4" /><!-- Safari video -->
</video>

(That's part of the "Video for Everyone" template.)

You can also specify a codec in addition to the container, which should remove some of the guesswork (or requirement to download file headers) that the browser would have to do to work out if it can play the codec used in the container (and the bitrate, etc.):

<source src='video.mp4' type='video/mp4; codecs="avc1.42E01E, mp4a.40.2"'>

(That example is from 4.8.9 The source element in the working draft. Not sure if that's the latest version; just what I found via Google.)

It picks one and plays that, but not both. Not sure what the rules are (e.g. if it has to pick the first one or can choose on the one it thinks is best, e.g. I'd want a Windows web browser to avoid QuickTime at all costs and favour formatting my HDD over loading that filth!)

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

Well at least with IMG you can pick JPEG and expect it to work reasonably well between all browsers. Smiley I think Ogg Theora should be at least a baseline codec. Basically Apple derailed HTML video in a way by refusing to implement Theora. Sad

Arguably Mozilla derailed HTML video by refusing to implement H.264.

CannotResolveSymbol
CannotResolveSymbol
{insert caption here}

Except that Mozilla can't implement H.264, as patent restrictions would prevent the codec from being open source.  Apple could have implemented Ogg Theora--  it's not patent-encumbered and the reference codec is freely available (under a BSD license).

giovanni
giovanni
...

Just a question, is the video tag really important then if you are not sure the browser will be able to read it correctly (assuming you are not going to have the video in all possible formats)?

W3bbo
W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

Apple's excuse is it fears submarine patents for Ogg Theora.

figuerres
figuerres
???

Good question....  and if i follow this right it means that the video tag / audio tag will be used only here and there by a few and then fade to nothing in use by most developers.

this kind of crud is one of the reasons we have such hassles with multiple browsers today... the html "standard" each time has left things open to the implimentor to decide, some of them have been small things that lead to major issues down the road...

like how tall some things get rendered etc... I do not have the details at hand but a bet W3bbo can give a ref to some of that... ??

so if the html 5 says fuzzy things and the devs and site owners do not want to have to store / recode media like 3 times per item then they will use an object tag that they know how to handle like flash or silverlight or windows media or quicktime.

oh well again this is why i get sick of the state of html and such.... non-standard standards that do not specify a standard.

Interesting use of the word can't when the truth is more like won't. Whilst there were technical objections to Theora, the arguments againt H.264 are purely ideological. Should we really be allowing standards to be defined by the political ideologies of a single contributor? What happens when the FSF push the boundaries further (we've already seen the desire to enforce political views through GPL3), will we continue to blindy accept those into the standards?

To take it to an extreme, what happens when the Scientologists/Catholics/Muslims/Pastafarians release a browser and start demanding that their beliefs need to be represented by the HTML spec (will all HTML6 documents need to contain a <JesusApproves/> tag?)

Perhaps I should have said "Arguably, Open Source derailed HTML video"

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

Mozilla doesn't own the full copyright to the Firefox codebase. They must follow the license like anyone else, or risk being sued for copyright infringement.

Besides the objections to H.264 are not purely ideological. For a web browser licensing H.264 goes up to five million dollars PER year. It's a very expensive codec.

Edit: Off by a multiple. Still frecken expensive. Smiley

Is it the job of the standards definition body to bail out an organization which made a bad decision in terms of IP ownership? Will it continue to be if they continue to do so? What about if the political hole they are digging themselves becomes fundamentally incompatible with the business requirements of others?

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

I don't think you can expect the W3C to say "if you want to implement HTML5, you better have $5 million per year in disposable income". I think the point is to offer wide implementation of web standardsin entities big and small.

CannotResolveSymbol
CannotResolveSymbol
{insert caption here}

Yes, you could argue that.  But why should a standard be allowed to mandate that a closed-source codec with exorbitant licensing fees be implemented when freely available alternatives exist?

If all the codecs are unacceptable to someone (and a standard has to have support from multiple implementors to qualify as a standard--  a "standard" on paper implemented by only one entity isn't really a standard), the only solution is to not specify the codec.  That's what happened here.

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

Another any interesting thing about the license fees, the $5 million per year cap only applies in 2010. MPEG LA reserves the right to raise this license fee in future years. Also, MPEG LA doesn't currently charge for websites serving H.264 content, but they will begin charging license fees for this in 2010. Meaning if you have a website that servs up H.264 (channel 9?) you will have to get a separate license. They haven't decided how much they will charge. But chances are, as with everything MPEG LA apparently, this won't be inexpensive. This could affect tens of thousands of businesses and individuals, and many more if HTML5 used H.264 exclusively.

Basically I view H.264 is useless as a video format for all but the biggest conglomerates who make billions of dollars and quickly hit the royalty cap, which as of now $5 mill is still petty cash for them. Notice that's why Apple and Google can live with H.264, they are both huge companies who use H.264 all over the place and probably pay the flat fee and are done with it. Apple also receives royalties from the MPEG LA, so they have a vested interest in the format.

If H.264 starts getting more adoption, and basically even medium sized companies will require to buy expensive licenses to H.264 to be competitive. If people become "addicted" to H.264, suddenly, MPEG LA more incentive to raise their license fees to almost a government income tax type level.

It could basically ruin the Internet, hurt mostly small business and individuals, which so far thrived on Internet IMO because it's an open access medium unlike TV.

PaoloM
PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

If people become "addicted" to H.264...

The only video site that counts (youtube.com) uses H.264. I don't see that changing and I don't see how it "ruined the internet" (well, maybe in the sense of mindless entertainment, but technologically it works just fine).

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

Well Youtube is owned by Google. Google makes billions of dollars. Google can afford H.264.

But what about everyone ELSE who wants to use H.264? Why should implementing HTML suddenly cost money? Does "the Internet" now how to be a licensee of MPEG LA, if they want to use HTML5 video, or hell even Flash?

Did you know that if you use Flash client and you are a business, you must get a license from MPEG LA? Flash's H.264 is not licensed for commerical use at all! This is both client and server (decoding and encoding video). Just because MPEG LA hasn't sued the millions of businesses that are probably in violation of this right now, doesn't mean they won't later.

But such fees stem from the perceived "value" of the browser market, which in turn stems from the epic legal judgements against certain browser manufacturers. Judgements which certain of the vendors now complaining about the value of the browser market were (and continue to be) key players in initiating. Did they really think that pushing for a legal valuation of the market on such a scale might not come back to haunt them if they aren't capable of pulling in an equivalent amount of revenue?

Bass
Bass
www.s​preadfirefox.c​om/5years/

I don't know what the hell you are implying. "Certain browser manufacturers", "certain of the vendors", can you please define who/what the hell you are ranting about? It would be kind of helpful.

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