'Script Kiddy' McKinnon loses fight against US extradiction | The Coffeehouse

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8177561.stm

So Gary McKinnon, an Asperger's Syndrome sufferer, loses his fight against extradiction for getting into NASA using blank password checks searching for UFO.

Gary faces up to 70 years in prison.

I think this is laughable and does make the US look like a bully.

What do you think?

Duanerrr

Seems a little harsh.

TommyCarlier
I want my scalps!

I think it sucks. If he did not have malicious intent, they should not treat him like a terrorist. And if the security of the US Navy and of NASA is not adequate, then they've got bigger problems than someone looking for evidence of UFO's.

spivonious

I highly doubt that a judge will sentence him to 70 years.

This is just about the UK respecting the extradition treaty it has with the US. And if he really did somehow cause $800k damage to NASA's systems, then he should be held responsible, regardless of what he was looking for.

AdamSpeight2008
The Bandito Coder

In reply to spivonious

#Jul 31st @ 10:51 AM

Curious how did they deternine 800k worth of damages.

Did is hack cause the lights at Nasa to be left on? or Short-out a CEO's coffee-maker?

If it for the cost of the changing the system so the hack could no longer happen. Could he claim it as a defect in design of the system and thus not liable. Eg if car (not one specific car but all cars of the same model) had windows that could be opened my lifting all the door handles at the same time. You would expect the manufacture to foot the bill to rectifiy the problem.

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

Ultimately he broke the law and didn't engage in responsible disclosure. His mistake. Should he be extradited? Yes, but this is a non-violent offence and the damages are excessive (they make the RIAA look charitable). If he must serve a prison sentance make it in a low-security prison for a year or less. No good can come out of putting him in a PMITA prison.

Also, I object to the whole Apsergers thing: it isn't a defence (nor is it something someone unduly "suffers" from either), it may be a neurological condition, but it doesn't impair moral judgement, if it was he would use some kind of insanity plea. By raising attention to his post-hoc diagnoses he gives fine, upstanding individuals who have AS a bad name, and this will set a precedent. (When was the last time you heard of a "good" shizophrenic?).

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to W3bbo

#Jul 31st @ 12:18 PM

Wow. W3bbo and I exactly agree (except on damages - he hacked military computers, you do that and get caught, then expect a world of pain)

I feel kind of soiled.

LeoDavidson

In reply to spivonious

#Jul 31st @ 10:51 AM

The UK shouldn't respect the current extradition treaty with the US. It should be repealed.

It's completely one-sided and when Blair signed it he was giving away our rights/powers for nothing in return. Any state within the US can take a UK citizen but the UK cannot do the same to a US citizen. What's our upside in that deal? Why would anyone ever agree to such a thing?

Blair, on the other hand, should be extradited... into the Sun.

spivonious

In reply to LeoDavidson

#Jul 31st @ 1:09 PM

Well, whether or not the treaty is a fair one, it's not in the judges' power to make that decision. Get the boys in Parliament to repeal it.

Sabot
My name is Dave Oliver. I'm a Technical Architect.

In reply to blowdart

#Jul 31st @ 12:20 PM

From the little I've read on Aspergers Syndrome it does impair the development of moral judgement.

However I do believe he has commited a crime and there is no excuse for that, he should be punished but it should be a punishment that fits the crime, nothing more, nothing less.

But what I want to know is ... what is the actual crime? Hacking? Damage? - How was that caused exactly? Proof?

I also believe he gained access by using accounts that where discovered by crude techniques and the passwords were blank. If there is no password how is this preventing access? Isn't this actually allowing access?

.... anyway should we Brits allow our citizens be extradited to another country that doesn't allow their citizens to be extradited here? I don't think this is fair.

ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

He commited a crime in the US. The US wanted to have him deported so he can face charges. The UK agrees that is fair.

What is the problem? What is the debate? This isn't a trial, this is the ability to have a trial in the location he commited the crime.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to Sabot

#Jul 31st @ 1:19 PM

There are multiple levels of it, there's been no real evaluation of how badly it affects him. What's pissing me off, like w3bbo is suddenly this syndrome is becoming a catch all excuse for doing all things illegal if you're a geek, and Mckinnon is being portrayed as a precious little fragile bundle of joy.

As for what the crime is, well it's on the extradition warrent. Proof comes during the trail.

And no, even in the UK simply having a login screen is enough to be judged as making a system non-public.

Oh and of course the fact that the Daily Mail have made a campaign about it is just another reason to dismiss the hype.

AdamSpeight2008
The Bandito Coder

In reply to W3bbo

#Jul 31st @ 12:18 PM

"Ultimately he broke the law"

Only a judge can make that decision, at the moment he's still innocent.

LeoDavidson

In reply to spivonious

#Jul 31st @ 1:14 PM

I agree. I wasn't saying McKinnon shouldn't be treated according to our law. I was just saying that our law is broken and needs fixing. I don't really care about McKinnon personally, though it seems he is being treated very harshly and I don't see why his trial and imprisonment (if found guilty of a serious enough crime) couldn't be conducted here.

blowdart
Peek-a-boo

In reply to AdamSpeight2008

#Jul 31st @ 1:32 PM

He's admitted it for heaven's sake. Unless Aspergers makes you into a pathological liar?

stevo_
Human after all

In reply to blowdart

#Jul 31st @ 1:33 PM

As well as a compulsive hacker.. its like hacker tourettes

rhm

To me the problem is one of disproportional punishment. The US is ridiculously harsh on all kinds of information crime, it's almost like witch trials - the people in charge don't really understand the risks, so they retaliate indiscriminately. That alone should be enough to call of the extradition.

We don't extradite to countries where people would face the death penalty (or at least extract agreements that the person won't face it) because of the same principle. Extraditing a hacker to the USA because 'that's where the crime occurred' is like extraditing the mastermind of a drugs trafficking ring (that never left Britain) to Thailand to face trial because that's where the trafficking occurred. On both counts: because it's debatable where the crime was actually committed and because Thailand's treatment of drug traffickers is unduly harsh.

ManipUni
Proving QQ for 5 years!

In reply to rhm

#Jul 31st @ 2:20 PM

Except the UK does the same thing.

The truth is that people are scared of what they fail to understand, and people fail to understand hacking/hackers. This means that the judge/jury start off with an unfair bias against anyone accused of such crimes.

Doctors are handled by their peers in some cases because "normal people" are too ignorant. I almost wonder if Computer Crime should be handled in a similar way?

PS - Don't even get my started on the "damages" in a lot of these cases... "X logged in as guest and made no changes! It costs us $100,000 to repair and fix!"

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

Afaik McKinnon didn't disclose any military secrets (like designs of future jet fighters) and if US sticked to the orange book and educated its staff how to handle computers with sensitive data this incident wouldn't happen. Will they extradict chinese leaders if they launch all out attack on US? I think not.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

In reply to blowdart

#Jul 31st @ 12:20 PM

Damn, I agree too.

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

In reply to RoyalSchrubber

#Jul 31st @ 3:39 PM

So, you're at home and forgot to completely lock down all your windows. A burglar come in and shoots you.

You're at fault because you didn't take all your precautions?

W3bbo
The Master of Baiters

In reply to PaoloM

#Jul 31st @ 3:49 PM

No, a better analogy would be:

It's not a burglar (since no burglary takes place) but a security consultant
They don't shoot you, they just leave a note pointing out the security flaw in having an unlocked front door
No "real" damage is done

PaoloM
Hypermediocrity

In reply to W3bbo

#Jul 31st @ 4:06 PM

And I still have him arrested for home invasion.

PS: if he's still alive. Considering he was on my property without my consent, I could have killed him and got away with it.

kettch

In reply to W3bbo

#Jul 31st @ 4:06 PM

But in this case the McKinnon wasn't an authorized consultant. Even if he didn't get anything, his intent was to access restricted information. Intent is generally treated as a seperate crime.

I don't know how serious the punishment needs to be. I'm not too familiar with Aspergers, would he be able to connect what he did to the consequences well enough to satisfy justice? If he can't, then there is no point in a severe punishment.

RoyalSchrubber
One. How many time travellers does it take to change a lightbulb?

In reply to PaoloM

#Jul 31st @ 3:49 PM

I didn't say what he did was right or lawful. It just seems ridiculous that they want to imprison one nut, when there are probably hunderds of hackers paid by countries that are not always 'compatible' with US employed to steal secrets.

It's like if you threw waterballoon at the president. You've broken the law, yes, but more importantly, what was secret service doing when they let you near him? The same here, they should be keeping secrets from whole countries, if an individual can hack into their computers then that only means they have crappy security plan. Besides McKinnon is not a new Klaus Fuchs, so 70 years seems excessive.